Ben 10 Reboot Discussion Part 1: Season 2
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@ungrateful-wolf And as I said on the Tv Tropes forum (which I will paste on here), if Man of Action really intended for Kevin to have his own Omnitrix in the OS, ok then. Two things comes to mind though. One, will Kevin having his own Omnitrix really work well for him as a character and for the show overall? Part of me doubts that considering the poor writing and execution that usually plagues the reboot show. Two, why do you think Kevin ended up not having his own Omnitrix in the OS? Probably because the OS writers saw that it wasn't a good idea and wouldn't work for the OS, which just further fuels my doubt that this direction for Kevin will work in the reboot.
These elements that didn't make it into the OS didn't make it into the OS for a reason. The OS crew knew that it wouldn't work well for the show. Stinkfly's original design didn't make it into the OS because the writers knew that it wouldn't work and the reboot prominently showed why it indeed didn't work for Stinkfly. Most fans and viewers that I've come across don't like Stinkfly's reboot design because it was a bland, generic, and out-of-place design that doesn't fit the fact that Stinkfly is an alien. That's one of the things about the reboot. Man of Action took pre-concept (or beta or whatever) elements that didn't make it into the OS and introduced them into the reboot forgetting as to why those pre-concept elements didn't make it into the OS. They weren't going to work well for the OS and the reboot proved that very point. With that taken into consideration, along with how the reboot show and its writers screwed up almost every returning character, I very much doubt that Kevin having his own Omnitrix is going to work. Looking at these factors, I find it more likely that Kevin in the reboot is just going to be like almost every other returning character being that he, too, will be a bland shell of his former self. Like I said, if Kevin having his own Omnitrix means that he's going to lose his energy absorption powers, then Kevin isn't Kevin. Kevin would lose something that defined him at his best and made him Kevin. If Kevin is going to keep his powers, then why does he need his own Omnitrix? If Kevin is going to keep his powers, then there's no reason for him to have his own Omnitrix because his powers would provide him with what having his own Omnitrix would provide, if not more. The way that I see it, Man of Action and the other writers put little to no thought into this. They implemented this very direction into Kevin while taking little to no consideration as to how this would actually affect and impact him as a character.
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@Tactical-Ochoa (I had replied to you on reddit, but decided to reply here instead)
If we look at Kevin in the OS, the only case I remember of him actually absorbing non-alien energy is when he absorbed electricity in his very first appearance, and it was only in the beginning of the episode. Later, all he did was absorb alien energy and use alien forms. He emulated Ben's alien forms in "Framed", then he became an amalgam of Ben's aliens by the end of the episode, and, in the future, he became Kevin 11.000 (an even more dangerous amalgam of aliens).
To differentiate Kevin's power-set from Ben's, the sequels (AF/UA/OV) heavily downplayed the alien side, and focused on the absorbing side - they made him absorb matter, which wasn't even part of his original power-set. Then the sequels introduced Albedo to fill Kevin's original role.
Kevin having an Omnitrix doesn't change much of Kevin's OS power-set. With an Omnitrix, Kevin can emulate Ben's aliens like he did in Framed, and he can become an amalgam creature (that happened to Ben in Innervasion, it can easily happen to Kevin too).
It's like what the MCU did with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. They are mutants in the comics, but since they couldn't use mutants in the film, they made them be genetic experiments. It changed the origin of their powers, but it didn't change their powerset itself.
Why MOA is doing that? I might be very wrong, but my guess is that they want to distance their Kevin from UAF/OV Kevin, because what the sequels did to him was never their plan, and present him as a "dark mirror" of Ben like they always wanted - and giving him an Omnitrix is a way to visually establish that to the viewers (like the sequels did with Albedo).
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@csgt Yes, the sequel shows certainly downplayed Kevin's powers, which is something that I wasn't fond of and found to not make much or any sense. Actually, no, Kevin's powers didn't really change in the sequel shows. Absorbing matter wasn't a change. It was an addition. Kevin's mutated form in Alien Force season 3 was more of a short term temporary lock to his powers than an actual, full on, permanent change to his powers (which was due to the Omnitrix, which also didn't make much sense to me). Once the original Omnitrix was destroyed, Kevin's powers returned to normal. That lock was lifted and Kevin was back to his old self. That's the most, and pretty much only time, his powers have ever changed. Other than the absorbing matter ability that was added to Kevin, his powers from the Original Series were at least mostly consistent throughout the sequel shows. Kevin's powers weren't really downplayed. Stuff was just added to them in a way that didn't make much sense to me. Kevin's powers had always been focused on absorbing some form of energy and mutating from absorbing too much energy.
If the reboot writers are indeed removing Kevin's energy absorption powers in exchange for him having his own Omnitrix, then yes, Kevin having his own Omnitrix does change his power set. It does downplay Kevin's abilities because Kevin can no longer absorb energy, thus greatly limiting his level of power. If Kevin's Omnitrix does work the same way that Ben's Omnitrix does (which I'm guessing will most likely be the case), then that limits Kevin's capabilities. It nerfs Kevin into being somewhere around Ben's level (although, that is dependent on what aliens Kevin can use and whether or not he could splice them together into some amalgamation). Kevin having an Omnitrix limits his level of power to what he has access to; especially compared to Kevin's energy absorption ability, which allows Kevin to become more and more powerful the more energy he absorbs. It could kill at least most of the tension that comes from Ben and Kevin fighting each other because, again, Kevin having his own Omnitrix puts him around the same level that Ben is at, thus making Kevin less of a threat compared to him being able to absorb energy (although again, that is if Kevin's Omnitrix works the same way as Ben's Omnitrix, which I'm guessing is going to be the case in the reboot show).
And your example with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch is terrible. Like you said, the MCU changed their origins but not their powers. Their powers remain the same. Kevin's energy absorption powers being removed and replaced by him having his own Omnitrix does change his powers. In fact, Kevin wouldn't even have any powers. Kevin having his own Omnitrix would be like if Quicksilver's superhuman speed was taken away from him in exchange for having high tech boots that allows him to run fast. It would be like if Superman's powers were removed and replaced by Superman wearing power armor and a jet pack.
Man of Action wanted for Kevin to be like how he was in the sequel shows. According to Duncan Rouleau here, Man of Action had always planned for Kevin to be an anti-hero, like how he was in UAF and OV. Given what Rouleau said, I wouldn't even be surprised if Man of Action make Kevin a good guy again...if he even is going to be evil in the reboot show.
http://themattress.tumblr.com/post/147424354834
Also, Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix to further mirror Ben. They did that with Albedo and it didn't work as well as Kevin did in the Original Series. Albedo was just an evil Galvan with Ben's appearance and a replica of the original Omnitrix. That's not a proper, evil counterpart to Ben. Albedo was an entirely different character compared to Ben. OS Kevin was the true, ideal dark mirror image of Ben and OS Kevin never had his own Omnitrix during that time. Kevin paralleled Ben in some ways but also differed from Ben as well. Kevin was a reminder to Ben of what Ben could've become if it weren't for his first meeting with Kevin. Kevin to Ben was like The Joker to Batman. Ben's view of Kevin was like Luke Skywalker's vision of Darth Vader on Dagobah in Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back. Do you see The Joker don some sort of uniform or battle suit that looks similar to Batman's outfit? No. Do you see Luke Skywalker wear a full armored suit like Vader does? No. Objects don't always present two characters being proper opposites to each other and I don't find that to be subtle either. It comes down to the characters themselves and their personalities and traits, which I find has a better chance of being more subtle. When symbolism and whatnot is shoved into the viewers' faces, usually it could end up being seen as intrusive and insulting of the viewers' intelligence. I find it better to be more subtle and put confidence in the viewers to be able to figure stuff out. Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix in order to be a better representation of being a dark mirror image of Ben and the Original Series is proof of that.Going back to Kevin's powers being removed and replaced by him having his own Omnitrix, taking away Kevin's powers does a lot more to Kevin than just change his power set. It changes Kevin as a character. In the context of the Original Series, Kevin was kicked out by his family because of his powers. Kevin was bullied and treated like a freak by others because of his powers. Kevin's mental instability and insanity as well as his psychopathic behavior was there because of his powers. Kevin's ability to absorb energy was a huge and long term fundamental aspect about him that made and defined Kevin for who he is. Take away those powers and Kevin isn't Kevin anymore. Take away those powers and you take away Kevin as a character.
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@tactical-ochoa said in Ben 10 Reboot Discussion Part 1: Season 2:
@csgt Yes, the sequel shows certainly downplayed Kevin's powers, which is something that I wasn't fond of and found to not make much or any sense. Actually, no, Kevin's powers didn't really change in the sequel shows. Absorbing matter wasn't a change. It was an addition. (...) Kevin's powers weren't really downplayed. Stuff was just added to them in a way that didn't make much sense to me. Kevin's powers had always been focused on absorbing some form of energy and mutating from absorbing too much energy.
I'm really sorry, I didn't understand what you meant here because first you agreed with me that the sequels downplayed Kevin's powers, but then you disagreed.
What I was trying to say: Yes, in the sequels Kevin still technically could absorb energy, sure, he didn't lose his powers, but at the same time, he stopped using them (with very few exceptions, like the Ultimate Kevin arc). But what I'm saying is, don't look at what Kevin could do (absorb energy/matter), look at what he actually does with this power.
In the OS, Kevin:
- Turned into aliens (in "Framed", he turned into the exact same alien forms as Ben, and in "Kevin 11" when he mutated into a hybrid Heatblast and a hybrid Four Arms)
- Turned into amalgam alien forms ( in the end of "Framed" he turned into his classic almagam form fusing Ben's ten first aliens, stayed like that during "Grudge Match" and "Back With A Vengeance", and later in "Ken 10" he turned into another amalgam form, Kevin 11K)
Most of the time in the OS (except for the very beginning of "Kevin 11" where he used a bit of electricity) what we actually see is Kevin going alien.
While in the sequels most of the time what we see is him creating a shell of metal, rubber and other kinds of stuff around himself. We rarely see Kevin going alien like he used to in the OS (with a few exceptions, of course). That's why I said the alien side was downplayed and his powerset was changed.
Why the sequels did that? Because going alien was already Ben's thing, if they had kept Kevin using his powers like he did in the OS, it would be redudant and/or make Ben useless. So they used Kevin's powers in a completely different way.
That's what I refered to as a powerset change.
It nerfs Kevin into being somewhere around Ben's level (although, that is dependent on what aliens Kevin can use and whether or not he could splice them together into some amalgamation). Kevin having an Omnitrix limits his level of power to what he has access to; especially compared to Kevin's energy absorption ability, which allows Kevin to become more and more powerful the more energy he absorbs. It could kill at least most of the tension that comes from Ben and Kevin fighting each other because, again, Kevin having his own Omnitrix puts him around the same level that Ben is at, thus making Kevin less of a threat compared to him being able to absorb energy
Well, again, if with his Omnitrix Kevin can use aliens and if he can splice them together into amalgamations, then he is doing the same stuff he always did in the OS.
I agree with you, technically, Kevin's energy absorption ability allows Kevin to become more and more powerful the more energy he absorbs, but when in the OS did he actually presented a bigger threat to Ben by using his energy absorption powers to do something different than turn into an alien or an amalgamation of aliens? I honestly can't remember.
(although again, that is if Kevin's Omnitrix works the same way as Ben's Omnitrix, which I'm guessing is going to be the case in the reboot show).
My guess, initially, it will be the same as OS Kevin. Just like in Kevin 11 and Framed, Kevin initially only used single alien forms. From the end of Framed onwards, he used amalgam forms, so I guess later in the Reboot, his Omnitrix will allow him to use almagam forms too. Just a guess though.
And your example with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch is terrible.
Alright, I will try a better example then. It's a bit obscure, so you might not be familiar with this. Spider-Gwen in the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon. In the comics, she had full powers, in the cartoon she had a high tech suit to simulate Spider-Man's powers. http://thedailybugle.wikia.com/wiki/Spider-Gwen
Or a more mainstream example, Spider-Man himself in the first trilogy had organic web instead of web-shooters.
Of course, there is always a polemic with these changes, but I just want to show that things like this have been done before.. Given what Rouleau said, I wouldn't even be surprised if Man of Action make Kevin a good guy again...if he even is going to be evil in the reboot show.
I guess he is, because of what I said earlier. Giving him an Omnitrixi and making him an ally would be kind of redudant in my opinion. If they wanted a second heroic Omnitrix user, they could have gone with Gwen, making her like Gwen 10, at least that way it would have the gender diversity. So I'm guessing he will be evil. Again, just a guess.
Also, Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix to further mirror Ben. They did that with Albedo and it didn't work as well as Kevin did in the Original Series. Albedo was just an evil Galvan with Ben's appearance and a replica of the original Omnitrix. That's not a proper, evil counterpart to Ben. Albedo was an entirely different character compared to Ben. OS Kevin was the true, ideal dark mirror image of Ben and OS Kevin never had his own Omnitrix during that time. Kevin paralleled Ben in some ways but also differed from Ben as well. Kevin was a reminder to Ben of what Ben could've become if it weren't for his first meeting with Kevin.
I completely agree with you there.
Kevin to Ben was like The Joker to Batman. Ben's view of Kevin was like Luke Skywalker's vision of Darth Vader on Dagobah in Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back. Do you see The Joker don some sort of uniform or battle suit that looks similar to Batman's outfit? No. Do you see Luke Skywalker wear a full armored suit like Vader does? No. Objects don't always present two characters being proper opposites to each other and I don't find that to be subtle either. It comes down to the characters themselves and their personalities and traits, which I find has a better chance of being more subtle. When symbolism and whatnot is shoved into the viewers' faces, usually it could end up being seen as intrusive and insulting of the viewers' intelligence. I find it better to be more subtle and put confidence in the viewers to be able to figure stuff out. Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix in order to be a better representation of being a dark mirror image of Ben and the Original Series is proof of that.
Alright, but you also have example of non-subtle opposite characters, and they work too.
Going back to Kevin's powers being removed and replaced by him having his own Omnitrix, taking away Kevin's powers does a lot more to Kevin than just change his power set. It changes Kevin as a character. In the context of the Original Series, Kevin was kicked out by his family because of his powers. Kevin was bullied and treated like a freak by others because of his powers. Kevin's mental instability and insanity as well as his psychopathic behavior was there because of his powers. Kevin's ability to absorb energy was a huge and long term fundamental aspect about him that made and defined Kevin for who he is. Take away those powers and Kevin isn't Kevin anymore. Take away those powers and you take away Kevin as a character.
I actually agree with you on that. Changing the powers do make Kevin a less complex character. But, despite that, MOA can still find other reasons for Kevin to be bullied or rejected by his family, if they actually want to work on his backstory. I believe that they can still keep his old personality (even if they don't fully develop his backstory). Considering that the sequel already changed Kevin's personality to make him a hero, if MOA at least keep the same personality Kevin had in the OS, I'm already satisfied.
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@csgt Regardless of what he actually does, Kevin still has those same powers. His power set still hasn't changed. Choosing not to use certain aspects of his powers for various reasons doesn't change his power set if Kevin is still able to use those very aspects of his powers...and he does. On occasion, unfortunately, but he still does absorb energy and mutate as a result of it. If a character can still perform certain abilities but doesn't actually use them most of the time, their power set is still the same because they can still perform these very abilities because their choice to use them or not is the only restriction (if you can even call it a restriction). If Kevin's mutation in Alien Force season 3 was say permanent, that would be a better example of an actual change in Kevin's powers/abilities. Kevin also does have a reason for not wanting to absorb large amounts of energy being that he doesn't want to mutate and thus be seen as a freak and he doesn't want to go insane, which not taking into account and context of Kevin in the Original Series, that does make sense. Kevin's power set in the sequel shows didn't change. What he actually does doesn't change what he's capable of doing.
Why the sequels did that? Because going alien was already Ben's thing, if they had kept Kevin using his powers like he did in the OS, it would be redudant and/or make Ben useless. So they used Kevin's powers in a completely different way.
Yeah, it's almost like Kevin isn't a good choice to transition into a more heroic character due to him being a proper and actual representation of Ben's true evil opposite as well as what you say in this very quote. I understand that they want to differentiate Kevin from Ben. To me at least, it just didn't work.
And no, using his own Omnitrix to take on different alien forms or create amalgamations is not the same as having the ability to absorb energy. The results are the same, or at least similar, but the process to achieve that result is very much different. In regards to Kevin as a character, having his own Omnitrix gives Kevin more control of his abilities, which doesn't fit in line with his mental instability and psychopathic nature...because it's the opposite of being controllable. In the Original Series, Kevin also stayed in his mutated state because of his powers. Kevin wasn't able to turn back to his normal self after he took on an amalgamated form. All that energy that Kevin absorbed stayed trapped inside of him and he wasn't able to expel it out. This further fueled Kevin's disillusions and instability, which is why Kevin blamed Ben even more for the very state that Kevin himself was in despite it really being Kevin's fault for it. Kevin having his own Omnitrix most likely doesn't provide that much complexity because, again, Kevin would have better control over it.
No, Kevin didn't do anything else with his energy absorbing abilities to present himself as a bigger threat to Ben...because he didn't have to...because he absorbed energy from the Omnitrix. He doesn't have to do anything different other than his mutation because his mutation already made him ideally powerful enough to present himself as a bigger threat to Ben and that's all thanks to his energy absorbing abilities.
Your example with Spider-Gwen is better. Granted though, that is in reference to Ultimate Spider-Man and the last time I checked, that show isn't really fond of by many due to there being many issues with the writing and storytelling and whatnot. I wouldn't be surprised if at least many or most fans and viewers took issue with Spider-Gwen having a high tech suit instead of having actual spider powers. Doesn't help Man of Action's case either since that they were involved with producing that show. Plus, Spider-Gwen's original powers were restored after that show ended. Gee, I wonder why? And yes, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy did portray Peter Parker shooting webs out of his wrist as opposed to him using web shooters. However, while it too is a better example to use (especially compared to your Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch example), it's also a much more minor example. In fact, it doesn't really change much about Peter's abilities. He just doesn't use web shooters. That's it. Pretty much everything else remained untouched as far as I know. Kevin on the other hand, we're talking about the possibility of him having all of his powers be removed and replaced by another Omnitrix. We're talking about changing one major aspect about Kevin that defines him and makes him who he is in favor of something that, to me at least, more likely doesn't fit Kevin as a character and possibly undermine him.
And sure, non-subtle opposites can work as long as the execution is done well. Never said that non-subtle opposites can't work. I just find that subtlety is better than having it shoved in your face. In regards to the Flash and what I'm guessing is Mr. Shazam, I don't think their opposites are as memorable. Usually, from my experience, when it comes to what is considered as the best and proper opposites to each other in the DC Universe, most people point their fingers at Batman and The Joker. Again, it's as if subtlety is better.
And yes, Man of Action can indeed find other reasons for Kevin to be bullied and to be rejected by his family and to keep his Original Series personality and whatnot. Would it have as much of an impact in the reboot as it did in the Original Series? I doubt it; especially considering how, as I stated before, Man of Action and the other reboot show writers undermined and screwed up almost every returning character in the reboot and how incompetent and lazy their writing often is. Here's the thing as well, my argument isn't about Kevin taking on alien forms and having an amalgamated form. I'm referring specifically to Kevin's original powers. I'm referring specifically to his ability to absorb energy because like I said before, that aspect about Kevin is such a major part of Kevin as a character. Again, Kevin's family rejected him because of his powers. Again, Kevin was bullied and seen as a freak because of his powers. Again, Kevin was mentally insane, mentally unstable, and psychopathic because of his powers. Again, his mutation and the further delusions that were created because of his mutation happened because of his powers. Almost, if not entirely, everything about Kevin pointed back to his powers. Kevin is a mutant. All these factors about Kevin in the OS makes him a walking doomsday scenario. A walking doomsday scenario who is obsessed with Ben and personally wants to make Ben suffer.
If Kevin had his own Omnitrix instead of having his powers, then he's not a mutant. He's not some hybrid. He's just a normal human boy with an alien watch. If Kevin is going to be bullied, it's most likely not going to be due to him being viewed as a freak. Kevin being rejected by his family wouldn't make as much sense because they too will most likely not view him as a freak. Kevin's Omnitrix is most likely not going to cause Kevin's mental condition to worsen and thus make him insane, unstable, delusional, uncontrollable, unpredictable, and psychopathic. Kevin is most likely not going to find himself stuck in some amalgamated form because of his Omnitrix and how it's better to control compared to his energy absorption powers. I have a feeling that Kevin is going to be set up more like Charmcaster in the reboot in regards to his quality as a character. Even if he does keep his original personality, it would more likely just not have as much of an impact and not have as much complexity, uniqueness, and subtlety to it with Kevin no longer having his energy absorbing powers in exchange for him having his own Omnitrix. That it would be set up in a more bland and generic way much like with Charmcaster in the reboot. You should know what I mean by that. After all, you did read my review of The Charm Offensive. I find that the reboot version of Kevin, much like with almost every other returning character, will just end up being a bland shell of his former self. Just the notion that Kevin is just a normal boy who also has his own Omnitrix already sounds bland and less interesting compared to his OS version. It makes him too similar to Ben and not as unique on his own. Again, take away Kevin's energy absorbing powers and you take away Kevin as a character. Kevin isn't Kevin without those very powers. I don't think Kevin having his own Omnitrix will be enough to salvage what is lost while also properly innovating Kevin as a character. It's a risk that I find is not worth taking. I could be wrong though but Man of Action and CN Studios' track record with the Ben 10 reboot already doesn't make things sound promising.
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I wonder when Cartoon Network is gonna aired new episode clips of Ben 10 Reboot season 3? Will be January or February 2019?
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For the whole kevin debate, i think at this rate, we should keep our expectations low, but try to be open minded anyways. Will kevin be as good as before? Doubtful. Will he be a good character in this show? Maybe, but again, this show manages to keep missing the mark. I think that going a new direction with his character is an interesting experiment, and i have no objections. I acknowledge this basically makes kevin a completely different character then before, but honestly, at this point, nobody in this show is anything like the original. we'll just need to wait and see.
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While this might be an unrealistic idea, it'd be nice if kevin was given 10 aliens that counter his own, such as artiguana to counter heatblast, armadrillo to counter diamondhead, and so on. Very unlikely, but a cat can dream.
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hm, i wonder why they're dressed like that. Perhaps a family member is getting married?
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I wonder what date when they're gonna new cartoon clips of Ben 10 Reboot season 3 real soon?
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@jondennison72 WELL GUESS WHAT
SEASON 3'S FIRST EPISODE IS ON THE APP
"OMNI-COPPED" -
It's on Kimcartoon now.
GLITCH WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU
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I enjoyed the new Ben 10 Reboot season 3 episode on Kimcartoon. Can't wait to see more Brand New episodes of Ben 10 Reboot season 3 really soon including when The Tennyson family and Phil traveling to Europe to face against the Forever Knights
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I haven't watched a single episode of season 2 yet so what is the general consensus on it? is it a improvement over the first season?
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@fangdanerd No, I watched the beginning of season 2 and then gave up on the show. It's the same as season 1.
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@fangdanerd It's pretty much more of the same as season 1 and the season 2 finale, Innervasion, is pretty freakin mediocre and had all sorts of bad writing and inconsistencies. Like some of the stuff that Innervasion showcased was pretty baffling to me.
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@fangdanerd
It's a bit of an improvement. There's continuity, more action compared to season 1, more meaningful moments between the Tennysons, and some tiny bit more drama: Ben starts doubting himself and realizing his powers can be dangerous, as well as that he knows nothing about the Omnitrix and that someone could turn all those cool powers into a weapon to hurt people. Also, some villains start targeting Ben directly instead of him "just being in their way", and some of the baddies are given more depth in comparison to season 1.
They've been building up the entire season to the finale where we got a new char! The finale explains the OEs btw -
Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll give it a try when I get some free time but I'll make sure to go in with my expectations low.
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@fangdanerd You're welcome.
