The Identity and Traditional Roots of Ben 10
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@Tactical-Ochoa But the original franchise already ended so it's not coming back. I honestly think the reboot isn't that bad, it seems like no one will accept this series and having the series get cancelled will really hurt Ben 10, I want to see Ben 10 be great in people's eyes again.
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@Rexfan1333 Why do you think I made this topic page? I'm not referring to the continuity of the previous shows. I'm referring to the identity, traditional roots and formula, and style of Ben 10. Not the continuity. I'm also explaining what went wrong and how to make things right.
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@Tactical-Ochoa I understand what you are saying, but the series can still improve, not saying everything you are saying is wrong or not, but the problem with CN (and even maybe MOA) is that they want to profit off of Ben 10 which gives the franchise a bad name which is sad, Ben 10 has lots of potential and it is a shame to see it wasted even if I like the reboot. Sucks no one can do anything about it because this franchise diserves so much better in so many ways.
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@Rexfan1333 And I make topic pages like this one to explain how to improve the franchise. I know that the Ben 10 franchise can improve. We all know this. I'm explaining how that can be done. The problem is that it's not improving. It's getting worse. I'm providing my best answers to the problem.
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@Tactical-Ochoa I wouldn't say series is getting worse, but the problem is that CN doesn't care about Ben 10 anymore other than using the series as a way to profit off it which upsets me to no end. I honestly don't think spreading your opinion about the reboot will do anything and that it just not going to change the reboot, this is aimed toward children and not us which sucks, but I think either getting MOA's attention and telling them how to improve and do something about it. I'm sick of the mistrearment of this series by CN and want to see it thrive agian because it has a amazing concept and idea that people need to see.
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@Rexfan1333 It's getting worse.
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@Tactical-Ochoa CN's treatment to there shows are getting way worse, even Steven Universe could possibly get cancelled by them because they thinking silly and stupid comides are better.
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I think the problem with this series is, they're trying to push more into being a kid friendly tone. What Dwayne did was trying to make it for older audiences to like it, and it mostly worked but at the same time it kept pushing away to what it really is, which some people don't seem to care. Most of Ben 10's fanbase is based off either OS or UAF. The show has lacked mystery since UAF yes, but there is still so much we need and more to grow before this franchise can become a hit again. Omniverse did do some redeeming yes, but at the same time didn't do any good, I know a lot of you hated the arc with the Rooters, but it did do some good to Kevin and the Plumbers Helpers, outside Alan, because Alan wasn't really needed for an arc like this, but it does help answer the background to Kevin and the PH's, the only thing we're missing is how Kevin gets out of the Null Void, or how Ben removes the Omnitrix. What Alien Force should've done is revealed why Ben removed it, and put him in a place with why Ben got lead into those events and so forth, originally OV decided Malware was going to be the case and revolve around Khyber, Malware and Psychobos for 40 episodes, but then everything got changed by the network. The more I keep thinking about it, its the network's fault for not giving Ben 10 the creative freedom they need in order to make this series good, they can't keep over exaggerating at what's too scary for kids and etc, CN made a very big mistake in the 2010s and that was cutting the 9-14 demographic to 6-12, despite the fact it was a channel for most people, they over pushed the channel to having shows that revolved around comedy, and like I said, the more they tried that, the more they failed. Kevin shouldn't have been a mutant, and Gwen shouldn't have been an alien, the only issue here is fixing Gwen because of all the talk of mana and most importantly Verdona, you can try it with a Reboot but that's also not going anywhere. The bright side with the creators of Omniverse, despite half the crew of being from UAF, is that some people actually watched Ben 10 and some of UAF, and its because of that we got a little more familiar with places from OS than UAF in Omniverse.
Now here's what I think we need the next time we get a Ben 10 show
- The over changes and retcons need to stop and focus on what OS and UAF have been about. Forcing more changes down our backs and ignoring everything is what's going to make everything complicated for a Ben 10 series or a universe, we can ignore minor things but not the things the creators or fans hate cause that's a pain in the ass to deal with, we can ignore it in the show but you can't retcon it.
- Don't overshadow Ben with Gwen and Kevin, The reason I like Omniverse a little more is because Ben and Rook's dynamic made more sense and nobody was overshadowing anybody, Gwen and Kevin were a big issue during UAF's run, and that's because they overshadowed Ben and the fan base were more fans of those two than Ben or his aliens, and Omniverse cutting them out for awhile was smart. Even in OS nobody was overshadowed because Grandpa Max and Gwen actually managed to fit as main characters, grouping with Ben on several occasions. If we're going to have a cast of characters or even a larger amount, it should be summoned down like Total Drama Island when they were focusing on 22-25 main characters throughout its run (mainly describing its first 3 seasons).
- Be unique, even with your formula, always be unique and different so it stands out.
- The workers actually respect each series as both individuals and its sequels and don't rush into cancelling out a sequel. Even if a worker hasn't seen it before, it should still be respected and treated with care.
- Make the show more close to Jojo and Pokemon XY/XYZ with how its treated in care and worked with perfectly, like even the little moments or big moments are treated with care so at least do the same with that.
This is all I can think of, I'll add more when I manage to come up with more. But ye.
It's Action Time!
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@Ebomnitrix Nice.
One thing that I want to point out though was that Gwen and Kevin weren't the problem. Just Kevin. There were also significant problems with Ben being partnered with Rook as well. Max and Gwen worked fine in the Original Series because Max mentors both Ben and Gwen, helping to make them better characters and heroes, while Ben and Gwen balance each other out. I already explained why so just go to the link below for the "why" of my point.
http://ben10club.org/topic/26/bwen/19 -
You're also forgetting @Tactical-Ochoa that Ben and Rook's partnership was designed as both opposites and a buddy-cop sort of thing. Rook and Ben are the opposites of most standards, Ben's irresponsible attitude, acts first before questions, more loose, he's human and relies on his powers. Rook however guides Ben on the missions, thinks first before knowing what to do, he's by the book, he's alien (and even acts like it, including the contractions and not knowing most Earth-terms.)
Ben and Rook just fit to me, same with Max and Gwen.
I know you're more of an OS fan than a fan for any other series, but Ben's relationship with Rook makes sense, despite having maybe a few flaws here and there, but the dynamic still fits in my opinion.
It also helped what made Omniverse unique, Gwen decided to be her own person and explore more of herself, well at the start she planned to... (which should've been more explored in later episodes, along with appearing less instead of twice a season), and Max was always there at the Plumbers base nearby if he ever needed anything. The only issue I had was Max stopped acting like he was retired halfway in the show and more like he was running the base, like what happened to that? I mean I can probably guess he was living there since the events of UAF (also love the reference to Alien Swarm with what they did with the Plumbers base), and things just happened, I don't know? But what I enjoyed was after UAF's lack of Grandpa Max he was in almost every episode and Ben could still rely on him whenever he needed him, so that worked out perfectly.
But the point I'm getting at is both dynamics were pretty much great.
I think another thing I can point out about an Omniverse flaw was there were too many team ups in certain episodes, it was always Gwen and Kevin appearing in 2 of the episodes each arc, unless they're in a 2 parter in which case it takes up an appearance of that later arc. And they teamed up too much with the Plumbers instead of doing their own thing, I mean certain episodes made sense, while others just didn't. I just wish they handled things more better in the show than team ups over and over.It's Action Time!
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@Ebomnitrix You make a good point with that. What I'm referring to is in regards to Ben's behavior and whatsoever. One of the major complaints of Omniverse is the way at which Ben normally behaved. His fun and impulsive side was exaggerated too much to the point where he acted too immature and out of line quite often even during missions. Rook may be better trained than Ben but he's not as outspoken and authoritative as Gwen is and Max isn't around enough to keep Ben in line either since that he's always at the Plumber Base while Ben is out doing stuff. I get the whole "buddy-cop" thing between Ben and Rook but the problem with that was that Ben isn't designed as a character for something like that. Yes, there are moments where it does work but there are plenty of moments where it doesn't work. Can they still do the "buddy-cop" approach with Ben and Rook? Yes. The one thing that would have to be done though, as I explained before, is to make Rook a supporting character and not a main character.
As I explained before, Ben and Gwen worked much better because they were designed to balance each other out. They were designed to suit and fit each other. They were designed too work off of each other very well. They balance each other out and it's major key aspects like that that proves that Ben and Gwen have the best relationship in the franchise over other characters. As I explained before, the series is about Ben and Gwen. Not Gwen and Kevin, not Ben and Julie, not Ben and Rook, etc. When it comes to characters, the series is about Ben and Gwen and that's how it should be. In order for Ben to work, Gwen has to be there to keep Ben in line. In order for Gwen to work, Ben has to be there to allow her to relax. Ben lacks focus due to his impulsive behavior so Gwen gives him the focus that he needs. Gwen works too hard in her life and just at least for once needs to have moments in her life where she could just take a step back, relax, and have fun and Ben gives her that. Ben needs Gwen and Gwen needs Ben in order for them and their lives to be balanced out. Kevin can't step in because he interferes with that balance and Gwen can't leave, like she did in Omniverse, because she NEEDS to have Ben around. They both benefit off of each other. That's why I said on my Bwen page on how Gwen is just as equally important to the Ben 10 series as Ben is.
Another thing to mention is that you state how in Omniverse, Gwen decides to be her own person and explore more of herself. Here's the thing, Gwen is already her own person. She has been in the Original Series and in the Original Series she already explored more of herself. She wouldn't be Gwen Tennyson if that wasn't the case. This was shown in the series through moments such as Gwen learning magic, Lucky Girl, her capabilities to hold her own even without magic in a battle, her outspoken nature, etc. She doesn't need to go out and be her own person because even when she's hanging out with Ben, Gwen is already her own person and has already explored more of herself in the Original Series. After all, it is a major aspect of a character going through character development as well. There isn't much of a point in doing and achieving something if you already did that before.
Like I said, Ben and Rook can work but it overall really doesn't make sense if it's just about Ben and Rook. Like I said before, Gwen needs to be a main character. She needs to be there alongside Ben. She needs to have Ben around with her. Having Ben with her is what helps benefit Gwen as a character and vice versa. In Omniverse, Gwen needs to be in Rook's place as a main character while Rook needs to be in Gwen's place as a supporting character. As long as Rook, Kevin, or whoever else doesn't interfere with that very balance, connection, and dynamic between Ben and Gwen and the series just has Ben and Gwen work off of each other the way they're supposed and designed to, then things will work just fine and Ben can still have that "buddy-cop" partnership with Rook as well and could work even better than what was shown because Gwen would be there to keep Ben in line and focused, thus allowing for Ben and Rook to work together better as well.
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@Tactical-Ochoa But would that not make Ben his own character with Gwen always keeping him in line? Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with the whole Gwen and Ben partnership as well as working together as characters, but Ben has to learn things on his own without Gwen at some point, even Gwen as well showing that they both have flaws and that they can overcome those flaws as characters and heroes, I honestly want to see Ben fight and develop on his own with out Gwen, Grandpa Max, and other characters to show he's maturing as a character and hero, I'm cool with the Ben and Gwen partnership, but would also like to see them grow as individuals. I hope that makes sense.
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@Rexfan1333 The answer to your question is "no." Ben is also his own character that explores more of himself. Much like with Gwen, this had also already happened with Ben in the Original Series as well. Otherwise, much like how Gwen wouldn't be Gwen, Ben wouldn't be Ben. Ben and Gwen are their own type of characters and they both had gone through significant character development both on their own and together.
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@Tactical-Ochoa It doesn't feel that way to me, but I feel the OS has flaws with Ben and Gwen's constant arguing that never went anywhere and just felt unnecessary to me, I like the idea of the reboot having them get along, but still not agree to things which feels realistic to me. I understand they need each other, but I want to see them grow as heroes and characters aswell.
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@Rexfan1333 And as I stated, that is what happened. The Original Series showed that Ben and Gwen do need each other while also showing them grow as heroes and characters. What you're asking for with Ben and Gwen already happened. It was already done.
As for Ben and Gwen's constant arguing that never went anywhere, it very much was necessary because that is part of the show portraying and expressing their relationship and how it developed over time. At the start of the series, Ben and Gwen don't get along with each other. They were constantly at each other's throats. They can't stand each other. They don't like each other. However, as the series progressed, Ben and Gwen's relationship developed and improved over time. Around the midpoint of the Original Series, Ben and Gwen were able to tolerate each other better. They still argued often but they weren't at each other's throats. By the end of the series, Ben and Gwen grew and developed to help each other, to care for each other, to like each other. This is part of them developing as characters. They started off in one position at the beginning and ended up in a different position at the end. That is another point that shows why Ben and Gwen's relationship and dynamic worked so well. Their relationship improved. This isn't something that can be done overnight. It's something that requires time. Ben and Gwen's constant arguing may feel unnecessary to you but in the grand scheme of things with them as characters and their relationship and dynamic with each other, it very much is necessary.
I also like the idea of Ben and Gwen getting along with each other but the problem with the reboot is that they're already getting along with each other. They already like each other. Because of that, their relationship doesn't feel as satisfying and significant in the reboot as it was in the Original Series. Also, because Ben and Gwen started off in the reboot already being good with each other, there isn't much room for their relationship to improve and develop, if not no room at all, because they already have a good relationship with each other. There's no need to further improve their relationship at that point and as a result, it makes Ben and Gwen much less developed as characters as they were in the Original Series. It's not good character development if they are already in a good relationship with each other. It's better for them to not like each other so that when they do eventually like each other, it'll provide a more satisfying and significant impact to the series and Ben and Gwen as characters.
Overall, Ben and Gwen's relationship and dynamic is much better portrayed and implemented in the Original Series than in the reboot. The Original Series did a much better job with Ben and Gwen's relationship and dynamic with each other than the reboot. The Original Series did a much better job of developing and improving Ben and Gwen as characters than in the reboot. Again, what you're asking for with Ben and Gwen has already been done in the Original Series in a much better ideal and suitable way.
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@Tactical-Ochoa I still feel they could've done a better job at it though, even the OS didn't do the relationship as perfect as they should have done and just felt like the fight scenes were more important (I love action more than the next guy, but even too much of it can get boring) and not the characters development. This is the reason why Ben 10 should go to Studio Trigger because they know how characters should work because the realtionship between Senketsu and Ryuko (as well as Mako and Ryoko) was beautifully done and I can see it work really well with Ben 10. I really want Studio Trigger to buy the rights to Ben 10, this has to happen.
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@Rexfan1333 It doesn't have to be perfect. Just at least good. If you expect something to be perfect, you're going to be met with disappointment. The Original Series did a great job implementing Ben and Gwen's relationship. Could it have done better? Yes but the same can go for anything. Overall, it did just fine, it was done in a great way, and it worked well for the series and the characters. At that point, not much more should be done with it. It's fine as it is.
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@Tactical-Ochoa I know what you mean, but it still has it's own issues just like the sequels and the reboot, they are not perfect, but if you take the ideas and improve them by studying them it will be a masterpiece, If I owned Ben 10 it will be a superhero drama with lots of real life situations like Ben dealing with fear as well as breaking down from time to time because it's to much dealing with being a hero as well as being a kid that will do whatever it takes to protect people from dying and being injured. It will possible be a lot of death as well.
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@Tactical-Ochoa I also found an amazing fanfiction that is close to what I want about a Ben 10 revival, it's called Watch Boy & Lucky Girl and I does a great job at giving the characters a story as well as cameos of sequel characters. Eve though it's a Bwen story, I love it because it still has the same idea, but expands on it.
