Best posts made by coreofthesun

@LaciDarkBlueUni Hopefully we'll get that soon but I'd personally be fine if they don't rush a new show - quality over quantity and all that.

A Ben 10 fan known as Muskito is currently making a fan game which is a remake of Protector of the Earth but with far more aliens and slightly different levels. He's planning on adding the 22 aliens of the original series to this game as well, and then hoping to follow this project up with an open world Ben 10 game with those aliens (he's recently added Stinkfly). He is Brazillian and so his videos are in Brazillian Portuguese (although he may be adding English subtitles ) but nevertheless I would still encourage everyone to check it out, it is excellent for a fan game.

A beta version can be downloaded here on Game Jolt for PC (https://gamejolt.com/games/b10remake/578793)

@Tactical-Ochoa @Mortie10 I was thinking about making a post just like this one. With the amount of retcons that the series has gone through as detailed by Mortie, I think that it makes perfect sense that all 3 eras are set in different universes.

UAF turned the Plumbers from a slightly xenophobic Earth-exclusive organisation into an intergalactic peacekeeping force. They also retconned Gwen's powers into being half Anodite which clashed with the Gwendolyn Tennyson that we saw from the future in OS who was clearly using magic, while in UAF she was basically Pink Lantern. . I imagine that in the UAF universe, Kevin was more of a common crook who did bad things without realising the consequences rather than being a psychopath who is obsessed with making Ben suffer - it makes his redemption make far more sense anyway. .Kevin's powers are also different in the UAF universe , as is the Omnitrix's functionality (for example one of the most interesting things about the OS is how the Omnitrix was part of Ben and required really complicated means to remove, while in UAF he could just slip it off. There were other things that were changed which I won't go into now.

Omniverse retconned Kevin's already convoluted past yet again as well as that of the Plumber's kids in the Rooters Arc.. Gwen got nerfed in terms of power and now uses actual magic again, Ben's immature personality makes no sense after all that he went through, and so on. There were a lot of things that were changed to try and match the OS but they were all kinda confusing and just as bad as the UAF retcons in terms of continuity.

At the end of this, my opinion is that each era of the show was each writer's take on the concept of Ben 10. You could see the aspects of McDuffie's writing from his other shows like Young Justice for example. The OV team too had their own inspirations I'm sure, but I think that someone should've come out with a statement that each series is a slightly different universe in itself. I've subscribed to this this theory ever since I rewatched the series and it makes the later shows a lot more enjoyable knowing that they are different continuities.

@Tactical-Ochoa Very detailed post with some great points all round.

100% agree with Albedo. With regards to Eon I certainly believe that he would've been more effective if they'd actually delved into his backstory a bit more. To show us how he became that way, and to highlight just how much he contrasts with Ben. There were probably opportunities in Omniverse to do so but they didn't really capitalise on it, potentially out of fear of making the story too dark. Actually I think that he would've made a far more effective villain than Maltruant if they'd done so.

The differences between Ben and Kevin also really show "nature vs nurture" at its fullest. Ben and Kevin share a lot of similarities as people, but Kevin represents the path which Ben could've gone down if he hadn't grown up around such good people with a proper sense of right and wrong. Kevin's backstory is honestly quite tragic , he was born with abilities which he didn't want and his family rejected him and chucked him out of the house for being a freak.He's someone whom you can understand but yet someone who you cannot forgive at the same time. "Kevin 11" is one of the darkest and most thought provoking episodes of the original series for this reason. Heck, even when they do have to work together in "Grudge Match", at the end of the episode Kevin saves Ben's life, but only because he wanted the pleasure of killing Ben himself. If that doesn't give out Joker or Green Goblin vibes then I don't know what does.

A lot of people defend his redemption in Alien Force because they say that Ben is always willing to forgive and give people another chance, and that with Kevin maturing he realised the error of his ways. People say that Ben and Gwen teamed up with him at first out of absolute necessity because he had alien tech, knowledge of Forever Knight operations and trades , and then this eventually it grew into mutual trust. UAF then retconned him into a half-Osmosian, with his Osmosian father being Max's Plumber partner (and if this is true then Max is an utter jerk for never reaching out to his partner's son at all in the original series. Not to mention how the space Plumbers are another retcon by themselves). Then they came out with an explanation that absorbing energy drove Osmosians insane beyond their control, but was completely reversible. This was meant to be a way of justifying Kevin's redemption but it just meant that he had no responsibility put on him for his actions. Kevin was clearly the writers' favourite character in UAF and they put so much effort into further developing his redemption story when it really did not fit his character and setup at all. People - especially teenagers - do change over time. And UAF Kevin by himself is a very entertaining character who is given a lot of depth. Just...why did Kevin have to get a redemption out of all characters? Someone like Charmcaster was far more deserving of making the transition to becoming good.

Don't get me started on Gwevin. I'm not into shipping at all but the Gwevin ship was unbelievably rushed and not thought out at all. It really made no sense otherwise given that neither showed any kind of care towards each other in the original series, and then all of a sudden in Alien Force we have these cringey romance moments in the very first episode? Isn't Gwen meant to be smart? I think she'd know better than to trust someone whom she last encountered like this. What a loving, caring couple they'll be in the future, right?.

Apparently Dwayne Mcduffie actually planned for Kevin to be going through an anti-hero/vigilante arc in the background which would've been better, and for Cooper to be the third member of the trio, but Kevin being good was mandated by CN for reasons which we'll never know...

I don't think that Kevin has to be a full blown villain. I think he'd probably also work well as someone who isn't definitely good or evil and walking the fine between. I think that him going through something similar to what Charmcaster did in UAF and OV would be far more fitting. The most important thing however is that he acts as a dark mirror image to Ben. That's what made him a good character in the original series and I think that he'd be effective as a means to show how Ben grows as a character, especially if he gets his own character arcs to parallel Ben's. His conflicts with Ben will always be personal as opposed to the vast majority of other villains. I believe that Ben would keep trying to give him chances and I can see them teaming up very temporarily in pursuit of a common goal (eg. stopping the Highbreed) but Kevin would be more likely to ditch them/backstab them when he gets the chance. I actually think that Michael Morningstar (with some tweaks) is actually a pretty good representation of whom Kevin is, what with him being addicted to absorbing energy and not giving a damn about anyone else other than himself.

I will say that I think that reboot Kevin going through a good guy transition similar to Alien Force's could work, as could his bond with Ben and Gwen given that he didn't try to hunt them down or kill them for no reason. But it does not work one bit for Original Series Kevin.

I think that every series in the franchise had their good points as well as things that they could've done better, so I'll try and present my opinion on all of these. This will be a very long post so bear with me.

Original Series
Pros: For me it was the best show when it came to character development and growth, and the three protagonists in Ben, Gwen and Grandpa Max were great. Ben and Gwen are imperfect and that's what makes them relatable, it makes you root for them, and they balance each other so well as characters (I know that a lot of the fandom hate their bickering but I think that it's pretty much how siblings would act). Max is a great mentor figure even before his reveal as a Plumber, and after that it is fascinating to learn about his past and the Men In Black-esque organisation which were the Plumbers. The universe felt so diverse with magic, mutants, aliens, bounty hunters at the same time as remaining grounded, and Ben's rogues gallery were all unique, even the one off villains like Clancy, and the writers got really creative with the range of plots while not making it too outlandish (except for that cursed Christmas episode) The aliens were at their most unique, balanced and interesting here as well and it felt so exciting to see Ben use them, and the Omnitrix looked cool. This is a personal preference but I think that the art style was the best in the original and just added to the experience. I just have a lot of praise for the original and there are so many other things which just add to why this series is my favourite out of all of them.

Cons: Ben suffered a character regression during season 3, and while I think that developing a bit of an ego is natural for a kid after kicking butt as a hero, they pushed it way too far sometimes even for a 10 year old's standards. The episode based structure of the show also started to become less viable towards the end of the OS which is why the final season felt a little underwhelming sometimes because there was basically no build up towards the Negative 10 two parter (though Secret of the Omnitrix was fantastic.). Also, the Forever Knights really could've been done better, and while Enoch was alright, Driscoll sucked even with his apparent past ties with Max and his high up status as the Forever King. It also wasn't explained how Vilgax got frozen after being defeated by Ben for the first time, or how he escaped the Null Void by SOTO, and there are occasionally instances where the classic series doesn't fully explain events, but I think that this is mainly tied to the episode based format.

Alien Force Seasons 1-2
Pros: It was 100% the right move to go towards a story driven structure after the original series and Alien Force did that well. I think that the setup that the series promised was excellent too: the Highbreed were unique villains and the whole secret invasion thing that they had going on was really intriguing. The DNAliens were really interesting as well given that they are in fact innocent humans under parasitic control and could've led to some compelling moral conundrums. Some of Ben's new aliens had pretty cool designs, and the fact that Grandpa Max wasn't beside them made the story more interesting. After the summer fun adventure of the original, the stakes were raised here in a story set up in the Tennysons own home town with an invasion of aliens who have bodysnatchers at their disposal who can use ID masks to blend in to society meaning that not many can be trusted. Tons of potential which was sometimes fulfilled (for example, "Alone Together" in my opinion was a masterpiece of an episode and really showed what the writers could do), but sometimes the execution did not match the quality of the ideas. Also Paradox was awesome and to this day is still my favourite character - partially inspired by the Doctor from Doctor Who but maintaining his unique personality and backstory.

Cons: It felt too try-hardy especially in the first season. Basically every episode was set at night which made the series look dreary, Max was apparently killed off in only the 6th episode, Ben became too serious and felt like a different character, they turned Gwen into a boring token female , and then there was Kevin who went through a transition which can best be described as the Joker suddenly becoming Han Solo. Rather than being the insane dark counterpart of Ben, Kevin is now the 'bad boy' who does illegal deals in the black market, has a body build befitting of someone 5 years older than him, with a cool car and an apparently dark past which he is trying to move past. His redemption should've never made sense but it would've been more believable if it were stretched out over the entire of S1, and it was cringe to see how they rushed the Gwevin ship even while completely ignoring the context of the original series. The alien designs were good tbf and I really liked some such as Big Chill and Swampfire. However in terms of powers they were pretty much fusions of the original aliens except more powerful, making the original aliens feel redundant and less special because the new aliens were stupidly overpowered. The retcons sucked - particularly the Plumbers retcon which turned them from an earth only organisation into an intergalactic police force (am I the only one who thinks that the AF storyline would've actually worked better with the Earth plumbers? ). And in the first two seasons there was no sign of Gwen using any magic and instead using Green Lantern-esque constructs, which was explained to being the descendant of a species of aliens called Anodites which explains her power. I think the episode involving the reveal even straight up said that magic did not exist in this universe which sucked. Ben shouting out the names of his aliens was cringey and was pretty obviously there for marketing purposes.

Alien Force Season 3 ( deserves a different section since it changes so much from the first 2 seasons)
Pros: This season was a bit more balanced when it came to setting, with a good number of episodes being set in the day to dispel the dark theme a bit. The plots were a lot more varied and we did see the return of some familiar faces and old aliens which was nice. The characters (especially Ben) are not so one dimensional anymore which can be good but that could work both ways…I’ll get to that. The main thing that I am incredibly grateful to Season 3 of Alien Force is how they unretconned their previous retcon of Gwen’s powers just enough to allow magic to exist again with the reintroduction of Charmcaster, with Gwen’s Anodite heritage explaining her innate ability at magic rather than being the sole basis for her powers which is a bit more acceptable although I am still not a fan of Anodites in general. Some of the episodes were admittedly good, my personal favourite being “Above and Beyond”. Also, despite looking like what happens when you fuse Tony the Tiger with Wolverine, Rath is easily one of the best parts of season 3 and UAF in general because of his personality.

Cons: Plotholes. Lots and lots of plotholes along with some more retcons. Why is the Omnitrix suddenly a wireless receiver connecting to Primus when it was clearly established that it was a DNA storage device? Why can the Omnitrix now just slip off Ben’s hand like a regular watch despite the fact that it is bonded to him? How did Ben's aliens manage to escape the Omnitrix when they tried to hack it? Kevin is now also an alien rather than being a mutated human. This itself isn’t that bad but the reveal of Max’s old partner Devin Levin just begs the question: why did Max never reach out to 11 year old Kevin in the original series and try to help his ex-partner’s son? Then there's Ben's personality - he does a complete 180 from being a mature and serious individual to an arrogant and immature jerk who's full of himself. Now granted, I like how this Ben isn't Mr Perfect anymore and has flaws, but S3 Alien Force Ben makes 10 year old Ben feel like a mature hero in comparison - one of the reasons that I liked "The Con of Rath" is because Ben himself was only on screen for about three minutes lol. While some of the S3 stories were good, some were just awful such as "Fool's Gold". And AF Vilgax was generic and boring without any of the menace that he had in the original series.

Ultimate Alien
Pros: By this point you've basically got used to the trio and I think that they felt so much more like real people rather than cliches like they did in Alien Force. They blended Ben's heroic nature with his cockiness and fun-loving nature pretty decently most of the time, Gwen was far better since she was now feisty again like she was in the original while also being the level headed and smartest, and Kevin was as snarky as ever. Their interactions and chemistry with each other is pretty much the main thing which drives Ultimate Alien and differentiates it from Alien Force. I liked the themes that they were going for such as Ben dealing with fame and the consequences of that, and personally I actually found the one-off episodes such as "Video Games" pretty enjoyable with the problems only arising when they came right in the middle of a story arc. The Andromeda 5 were interesting aliens and each of their episodes is unique in its own right, Aggregor was a solid villain and the Andromeda 5/Map of Infinity arc was probably the peak of Ultimate Alien and its storytelling. I also appreciate how they attempted to give Charmcaster her own arc.

Cons: Oh boy...I have a few. It once again felt like it was trying too hard to be dark and gritty, with the main offender being the Ultimate Kevin arc. To this day I still have no clue why Ben was willing to spare Vilgax in AF, save the guardian of the Perplahexahedron at the cost of getting the last piece of the Map of Infinity, but then just suddenly decides that Kevin needs to die despite having more personal connection to him than any of the others? The Ultimate Kevin arc did have potential and I see the ideas which the writers were trying to go for - perhaps even suggesting Ben getting dangerously close to becoming the coldhearted Ben 10,000. But once again it is the ideas vs execution aspect which UA does not deliver on, and the fact that Kevin is never at all held responsible for his actions because "the powers made him do it" is frankly stupid - surely that should apply to other insane superpowered characters in fiction like the Green Goblin? There were numerous other plot holes which just kinda ruined the story a bit, and the Diagon arc was a massive snooze fest with the only interesting part being Old George (before he was revealed to actually be a good guy). The rest of the Diagon arc had the most generic villain, Vilgax being shoehorned into the plot and the lamest final battle, ending with the eternally memeable line: "You....stabbed me!" because that's all the fight consisted of. The Ultimate Aliens felt like something out of a fanfiction and asides from Ultimate Echo Echo they were a little underwhelming, not to mention how we only got about 8 Ultimate Aliens and they were scarcely used despite literally being in the show's title. The animation also got a bit clunky though I can't blame the animators much given that their budget wasn't that high.

Omniverse
Pros: I appreciate how the series tried to inject some fresh air and adventure back into the franchise. Most of the episodes were now set at day and the ones which were at night still looked good possibly because of the artstyle and colour pallete. The concept of Undertown was genius and it is a very nice transition phase from the present day to Ben 10,000s future where aliens and humans are living together pretty much in harmony. Some of the new rogues and villlains were great - Khyber was very unique and threatening in the earlier seasons of Omniverse and although some people don't like the Nemetrix, I thought that it suited Khyber's needs and gave Ben a new challenge. Malware was excellently implemented and the arc involving him was one of the best story arcs that the franchise has ever had, especially in terms of Ben himself growing as a character. There were some really interesting ideas in there such as the concept of Ben 23 who highlighted just how important Grandpa Max was to Ben's growth, especially when you compare 23 side by side with Prime Ben. They tried to add a lot of diversity back to the universe which again, I appreciate, at the same time as giving almost every alien from across the franchise some screen time. Rook was also a surprisingly good character and was someone whom you could root for.

Cons: While UAF felt like it was trying too hard to be dark, Omniverse felt like it was trying too hard to be humourous. For example, Ben always shooting for Humoungasaur but getting a different alien. Granted this was sorta funny until when the Omnitrix gave him Humoungasaur for the first time in the season 1 finale (which was admittedly a sweet payoff) but after that it got VERY annoying. The most infamous example of this is the Contemalia scene in the final episode where Ben sees these beings as the closest thing to his heart. You'd expect that to be Grandpa Max, or his parents, or Gwen, or even Rook, right? Nope, they appear as godamn Mr Smoothy Mascots. This exaggerated focus on humour dampens a lot of moments in the series and makes it less impactful. Ben himself feels aloof as a character and doesn't seem to recognise the gravity of a situation most of the time. I like him being cocky and taunting villains but a lot of the time he feels more immature than his 10 year old self which is incredibly frustrating since he has been through so much and to see him regress like that feels wrong (though imo he isn't quite as bad as AF S3 Ben). It has it's fair share of plotholes and retcons as well, which are more commonly hated by the fandom than the UAF because the OV team were blatantly obvious about them. The most infamous of these is the Rooters arc and while I understand that they were trying to make it more like the original series with mutants and magic and whatnot, fixing retcons with more retcons is not right.

Overall every series has its strong points as well as areas where they could've improved upon, and although my favourite is the original I like how all of them brought something new to the table.

@Tactical-Ochoa I think that CN missed something major when they made the reboot or even back when they made AF. If the show is genuinely good, then merch sales will generally follow due to the franchise's popularity due to its quality as a series. Of course revenue from merch sales is important to help funding the show. Tt just became too much later on in the cranchise especially with a lot more humanoid alien designs for easier produced action figures (I mean seriously, Fasttrack did not need to exist other than that he was easier to make action figures of than XLR8)

Obviously one of the main aims of the reboot was to promote merch sales but that doesn't seem to have worked as well as CN would've liked - so I think that we may get a genuinely good series next up no matter what form it takes (another reboot, new sequel to OS, Omniverse continuation, Ben 10k series, Ken 10 series etc.)

I believe that the three sequel series did a good job at introducing their own villains into the story, such as the Highbreed and DNAliens, Aggregor, Malware and Khyber. However, I believe that one villain in particular was mistreated greatly by the writers after the original series, and that was Vilgax: the main villain of the OS.

The presence of Vilgax was felt from the very first episode when he was pursuing the ship carrying the Omnitrix, and throughout season 1 he is a constant presence lurking in the shadows, biding his time until he recovers from his injuries. The S1 finale "Secrets" was the climax of this with Vilgax, his abilities and intentions finally fully revealed. He was one of the most intimidating antagonists that I had ever seen, and still remains to be to this day. From his cybernetically enhanced appearance, his menacing voice portrayal by Steve Blum, and his strength combined with his intelligence made him genuinely scary and the whole episode showed that Ben was in fact, not invincible. His return appearances in "Back with a Vengeance" and "The Secret of the Omnitrix" while not having the novelty of "Secrets" still do a great job at portraying his ruthlessness and fear factor and making the audience feel genuinely scared whenever he was on screen, and seeing Ben defeat him was incredibly satisfying as a result.

So what happened? Well originally Vilgax was not meant to appear in the sequel Alien Force with Dwayne McDuffie and the crew planning to continue the Highbreed arc into S3 had it not been for interference of Cartoon Network. And so Vilgax was introduced back into the series, but he had changed. Gone was the cybernetically enhanced body, the ventilator, and even Steve Blum's voice acting. It was replaced by a Vilgax who was portrayed very differently from what he was. Yes he still was a vengeful person after the Omnitrix, but was now more of a warlord character. He had collected weapons from across the universe from defeated heroes and had now come to Earth to apparently kill Ben Tennyson and take the Omnitrix. Safe to say this version of Vilgax while ok on paper was far more underwhelming than the original. Giving him a sword, a rip-off Infinity Gauntlet, laser eyes etc. was too much in my opinion - he worked far better with just raw strength. While I don't think that James Remar did a bad job as Vilgax, he did not have the menace that Blum brought so well to the role. This version of Vilgax was also notably less intelligent than the original version, the most infamous instance of this being him finally acquiring the Omnitrix and then having no clue how to use it, leading to him being outsmarted by Ben of all people. Wasn't Vilgax a master of the Omnitrix in the original? Surely if he wanted it so badly he wouldn't have just forgot how to work it?

Vilgax then becomes a servant of the Diagon in UA, and for me it felt so wrong to see Vilgax yielding to the will of someone else, however powerful. Even though he ended up betraying Diagon in the end it still felt out of character for him. Oh and despite acquiring god powers he is an absolute pushover for Ben who runs up and simply stabs him with Ascalon.

In Omniverse they brought Blum back to voice Vilgax but not even he could save the role. Tbf this version of Vilgax was more ambitious with his plans especially with the use of the Chronosapien Time Bomb to wipe out all the Bens, but like many things in Omniverse, he was unfortunately turned into a bit of a joke (I mean , can you seriously see OS Vilgax being scared by Ma Vreedle?)

TL;DR - I thought that Vilgax's portrayal after the original series was underwhelming and doesn't do justice to the character who was built up as the main villain from the start. If I were to re-implement him after the OS I would have him voiced by Steve Blum again and give him his cybernetically enhanced appearance back, though perhaps without the ventilator. I personally believe that a "less is more" approach works with Vilgax - he doesn't need lots of different weapons and gadgets but just his strength and cunning. However, just because he was the big bad of the OS doesn't mean that he has to stick around forever like he did in the original continuity. I can definitely see a Vilgax arc with an older Ben culminating in either the death (like we saw in the original Ben 10,000 timeline) or permanent imprisonement of Vilgax so that he is no longer a threat.

Anyway what does everyone else think?

Obviously this specific example would never happen because people would say that it was a rip-off but there is a lot of potential to tell stories in the Ben 10 universe without having Ben as a protagonist.

The most popular ideas seem to be a Gwen or Kevin spinoff or a Ken 10 show. I personally don't really think that the first two would work that well though a Gwen spinoff may be able to expand on the more mystical side of the universe. I've mentioned before why I think that Ken 10 would be the best direction to go in the Prime Timeline but even then we may need one more series focusing on Ben to complete his developement and transition into Ben 10k

@cooljay7

Yeah it does suck that they’re overdoing humour, not opposed to some comedy but this should’ve been an action packed episode, especially given that it’s a crossover. Oh well, the reboot is ending after these specials anyway (well at least until the apparent sequel comes out)

Reviving another ancient topic lol.

I have said before that personally I'm not a Bwen fan personally . The way I see it is that Ben and Gwen work off each other like brother and sister - in fact given that Ben is an only child, for me it seems that Gwen is like the sister than he never had . But they balanced each other out really well in the original. I think that the reason the ship was so popular was that Gwen was the only girl of his age whom Ben spent time with in the original - Lucy only had two short scenes in one episode while Kai...yeah fans didn't like her after how she treated Ben at the end of "Benwolf". And of course their chemistry with each other naturally led to a lot of shipping. Personally I think that if one sees romantic vibes in their relationship then the shipping makes sense, and if one doesn't then the relationship is purely platonic and non-romantic.

However I think that their bond with each other definitely fell to the wayside by the later shows, and while Kevin's good guy transition was one reason (I will get to that) I think that the primary reason was because Gwen and Ben weren't that well written as characters in AF, especially in comparison to the original series. Due to Alien Force trying really hard to push the "mature" theme of the show, they made Ben an essentially morally perfect protagonist initially, making him very mature and serious. I get what they were going for but it just made him feel so boring and generic rather than being a distinct character. Gwen was just as bad if not worse in terms of character. In the original she was a pretty distinct character - yes she could sometimes get annoying due to her personality but she was someone who you could root for and care about, just like Ben was. Alien Force changed all that by basically reducing her to being the stereotypical "mature token girl" of the series. She was so drastically different from who she was before that it didn't feel like she was the same person at all. She felt really passive and almost soft , and seemed to have lost most of her wit and feistiness to the point where this 15 year old girl was acting like a mother. Heck they even changed her magic from blue to pink to further make her the token girl.

However, my biggest problem with Gwen as a character was how she became so dependent on her relationship with Kevin in UAF. Again, this is taking an independent female character and making her too dependent on romantic motivations which doesn't feel right at all for me. The Gwevin ship itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense in context but that's a different can of worms. Regardless, introducing Kevin into the fold and forcing Gwevin (within what, 4 episodes?) disrupted the balance between Gwen and Ben (as mentioned earlier in the topic). It placed the focus on Gwen and Kevin's rushed romance rather than the bond between Ben and Gwen and how they balance each other out

To be fair to Ultimate Alien it did do some things right. They brought back Gwen's hot blooded nature from the original series, and although it felt that she complained more, it was still a huge step up from Alien Force Gwen. Ben was a bit of a jerk but I think that UA was the closest to giving us a balanced teenage Ben who can be both cocky and serious. I think that UA for all of its flaws did a slightly better job of writing their main characters - but they didn't nail them. The Ultimate Kevin arc was once again guilty of making Gwen overly reliant on her romantic motivations, and while she and Ben did work together in this arc, Ben was acting out of character anyway so...yeah the characterisation in that arc was a bit all over the place.

But anyway, because of the focus on Gwevin we barely have any interactions between Ben and Gwen. Gwen often sides and spends time with Kevin over Ben due to the romantic subplot and thus we never really get to see them have any banter or meaningful intereactions and as Primarily because Ben and Gwen in Alien Force are just either dull or inconsistent as characters and one could even say generic. I get that the narrative is that they've matured and don't fight as much anymore, which is fine. However they have hardly any chemistry and rivalry between them in UAF, if any at all because of the focus on Gwevin. I know that many people prefer them always getting along as opposed to their bickering, but personally I think that there should've been a midground in the sequel series: yes have them act more respectful and less immature towards each other but keep their distinct personalities and their banter with each other. I mean they're 15/16 year olds for crying out loud.

@Tactical-Ochoa Well said. Given that other shows have multiple continuities like TMNT and Transformers, I don’t see why Ben 10 can’t do the same. It would be important to make clear that this new show would be an different continuity and that the other shows don’t fall the wayside per se: they should all still exist and be watchable imo because all of them had their good points and I believe that AF, UA and OV are all good shows in their own right.

But I don’t think they did a great job at being sequels for precisely the reasons that you have outlined. The tone changed, the characters sometimes changed to something that they never should’ve been, the continuity changed too depending on who was writing. If they were to make this sequel then they’d need to keep the heart of the show there even with a different story in place and the characters growing up. UAF sometimes came off as being dark for the sake of it, while Omniverse pushed the goofiness too far sometimes.

One thing that I believe should’ve been focused on in AF was Ben’s non hero life and how he has to balance it out with dealing with the threat of the Highbreed. In the OS they had an excuse since it was just the 3 of Max, Gwen and Ben on a road trip across the States, with all of them knowing about the Omnitrix. There was such a great opportunity in AF to show us Ben’s relationship with his parents, how in fighting evil it can affect his normal life, and how he deals with problems of growing up (same can be said for Gwen). One of my problems upon rewatch of AF is that the main cast didn’t feel like teenagers because we scarcely got to see the other side of their lives. To Ultimate Alien’s credit, for all of its inconsistencies it did a better job of making them flawed but ultimately good hearted teens.

I don’t think that it’s a bad thing if they have the odd intergalactic adventure, as long as it’s not in excess. They went into space so much by the time UA rolled around that it didn’t feel special anymore (remember in “Be afraid of the dark” where it was so cool when they went into space for the first time?). I agree that the storytelling is better if it is generally grounded, but it would be cool to see the more mystic elements of the universe - I thought that Legerdomain was cool so maybe they could expand on that?

But ultimately this is Ben’s story, not the Omnitrix’s. We need to see Ben develop and learn as a person through his experiences while still maintaining his unique character, because the Omnitrix is just a device - Ben is the one who needs to be the hero.

Edit: A whole Ben 10k series after would be cool but it would be quite difficult to write especially with him having Master Control and having more or less completed his hero’s journey. I think that a series with Ben in his 20s would work but by the time that he is Ben 10k I think it would be better to shift the focus to Kenny.

Is there any sign of Cartoon Network having a Renaissance of some sorts with regards to the types of shows which they start showing? Because it doesn't look that way at the moment with Teen Titans Go dominating the schedule, and it looks like the "comedy" format of shows is what generates the most money for CN and looks like that's what it will be like going forward, with the reboot sequel likely to follow suit.

The reboot isn't the worst show on Cartoon Network and I don't wish to be a jerk and upset the people who enjoy it. I just believe that not only the long-time fans, but the kids too deserve better - heck, my little 9 year old brother think that the reboot "tries too hard to be funny and ends up being stupid" . Although his favourite series is Omniverse, he finds episodes of the original 2006 series way more enjoyable to watch than the reboot - and this is all without me suggesting to him at all that the reboot is not as good as the OS. Children aren't as stupid as CN seem to think and if they do make any kind of continuation I just hope that they treat their viewers with respect and allow the writers as much freedom as possible.

I was having a discussion with someone on Reddit as to what would happen if they started showing Original Series reruns after the reboot ends, to which they said that the more detailed art style alone (and how it is different from most CN art styles nowadays) may catch the attention of kids and the story and charm of the original would do the rest. I've lurked around forums like this for a while so am familiar with @Tactical-Ochoa 's idea to make a new sequel to the original series exploring an alternate AF timeline and attempting to make the continuity more streamlined and improve on where the sequels slipped up (I believe that Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse were all good shows in themselves but not good sequels). That could've really worked back in 2016 but I think that with the 2016 reboot wiping the slate clean it may confuse viewers as to which shows belong to which timelines.

Reboots are fine since they give writers another shot at doing a show right. I'm sure that when Ben 10 started the creators didn't think of all their ideas from the beginning, and obviously with the retcons the original timeline became a bit messy. A Ben 10 reboot could've been the chance to fix those issues and create a smooth timeline by taking the best aspects from across the franchise and merging them into one. An example of a good reboot is one of my favourite comic series: "Ultimate Spider-Man" by Brian Michael Bendis (which I've mentioned here before - I am quite a big Spider-Man fan as well as a Ben 10 fan lol). Sure the comic re-interpreted a few characters and had a more grounded story, but in the end it kept true to the core themes of what makes Spider-Man such a good character which is why while not perfect, it was a great reimagining of the character. But unfortunately a lot of reboots these days seem to be more inclined to advertising toys and merch by using the name of the franchise to attract interest, and I hope that changes

/wall of text over.

@KineceleranGirl I'm really sorry for what you had to go through due to being a supporter of Bwen. Nobody should be slandered to that extent for their opinions on the characters of an animated series. The argument of simply shipping them together being paedophilia is stupid. This therefore means that shipping Phineas and Isabella from Phineas and Ferb is paedophilia, or shipping Ash and Dawn from Pokemon is paedophilia, and so on (I'm not really into shipping either and I imagine that there are countless other examples). Yes there are the weirdos in every fandom who get kicks out of looking at NSFW fanart of underage characters going at it like jackrabbits which I also find absolutely disgusting, but simply shipping two fictional characters isn't creepy by itself.

Although I'm not a Bwen shipper, I can perfectly understand why people ship them and given that a large amount of the fanbase is from the US, it is the taboo against cousin relationships which causes such outcry. Another part of the "ew" outlook towards Bwen seems to be the infamy that the fandom has acquired because of the R34 fanart of the 10 year old versions of Ben and Gwen doing...inappropriate stuff. What people don't understand is that there are Bwen shippers like yourself who ship them not because of the NSFW stuff, but because you care for them as characters first and foremost.

@cooljay7 I have no problems with people using the hashtag respectfully while tweeting as you said (even though I think that we should've waited for a while after the end of the reboot to start using it) - it's just that certain people are using it to be horrible to the people who work on Ben 10 and spamming it.

I think that it’s a cool way to end the reboot but there’s a lot of reliance on fanservice especially with regards to showing OG, AF, UA and OV Ben when they are all the same person.

I really like the unique designs, especially Perkins' interpretations of some of the aliens mentioned in "Ken 10" which never got Omniverse designs like Toepick and Atomix did.

@Tactical-Ochoa Exactly. I mean don't get me wrong it's hype that these characters are here but as you said, it feels more there to get more fans of the original continuity watching. The specials themselves seem to be average in terms of story as mentioned by @cooljay7 with Ben 10,010 probably being the only one which I'd deem solid in terms of plot.

@cooljay7 I'll admit that the insistence on CN pandering only to younger kids annoys me. Originally the targeted age range was meant to be 10-15 years old iirc (though of course not exclusive to those ages) meaning that CN shows used to be for an older audience who could understand more mature themes. But they then shifted it to a range more akin to 7-11 years old for some reason I mean, there are other channels which do show cartoons for younger kids, why does CN also have to do that when they can televise shows for an older age range? I'm guessing that it's to do with profit but they are making a mistake by isolating their teenage or adult audience.

And even then, for some reason CN thinks that kids are stupid and so many newer shows have the same old unfunny humour, bright colours, and same-y arstyle in them. I'm not suggesting that the Network should descend into edginess because that would be just as bad. I just think that they could do with some more variety in the types of shows which they make, far better than showing Teen Titans Go 24/7.

With regards to Ben 10 in particular, I wonder whether rerunning the original series, Alien Force, Ultimate Alien and Omniverse would spark the interest of kids because of how different they look in terms of art and feel in terms of tone. Then that could set up a possible Omniverse sequel, Ken 10 series, sequel reboot or whatever. That would not only attract younger kids but please the older fans too.

My theory is that this version of Max wasn't a Plumber himself, but someone who was familiar with the organisation. For me he's way too goofy and irresponsible (well at least compared with original Max) to actually be a Plumber.

Still though, even if he only knew about them surely he would've tried to contact them when larger threats like Vilgax started to emerge in the reboot universe. Or at the least he could've told Ben and Gwen about them. Again, this detail seems more for fanservice than actual plot consistency.

@cooljay7 I'd be interested to see what happens. It certainly can't hurt to try. I'm not saying that the artstyles of Steven Universe, Adventure Time or even the Ben 10 reboot are bad per se, given that high complexity does not necessarily make for a good art style. It just comes down to diversity of the artstyles on cartoons these days which imo aren't that broad right now.