I’m not someone who is massively into shipping characters for the sake of it. Especially not when it comes to the...R34 fanart. Yet I adore the Bwen ship because Ben and Gwen just complete each other so naturally and well. The only thing that stops this from being one of the most obvious ships in fiction is the fact that they are cousins. The thing is that in the early versions of the OG series, they were actually classmates rather than cousins, but when the writers changed it last minute, they still left behind quite a bit of the romantic subtext betweeen them. Which is one of the reasons why the ship became so popular.

Yet because of the whole incest issue, Bwen shippers don’t exactly get a good name. I was active a few years ago within the fandom and when I said that I was a Bwen shipper I was called a paedophile, told that I needed to be locked away in a mental asylum, accused of wanting to shag my cousins, and other responses in a similar vein. I am absolutely against paedophilia and personally find the fanart which sexualises the younger versions of the characters utterly sickening, but apparently the Ben 10 fandom is actually infamous to others for that fanart. I detest porn and R34 art in general as a girl since I find it really disrespectful and degrading , but sexualising minors is utterly unacceptable. I also do not have any kind of attraction to my cousins just because I ship Ben and Gwen. Some of the things which were said to me was a massive reason why I left the fandom for a few years.

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that being in a relationship with your cousin isn’t taboo everywhere in the world, and Ben 10 is watched widely in areas which allow cousin relationships. Also, incest tends to only really become an issue if inbreeding is repeated over generations leading to a smaller gene pool. Besides, there are cousin couples who adopt children in case they are scared that their own child would not turn out well if they were to conceive one. Anyways, although I understand why they didn’t make Bwen canon, I think that it would have been a very brave decision if they did, and ultimately one which makes the most sense. Far more than...ugh Gwevin. Wtf were they thinking with that? If anyone likes the ship then that’s fine but it wasn’t some epic romance to me, more an edgy guy/good girl combo which made zero sense given that Kevin tried to murder Gwen twice 5 years prior.

I love the original sequences so much but one thing I really appreciate about Omniverse is that when they didn’t do full detailed sequences, they always animated Ben morphing in real time rather than enveloping him in a green flash like in OS and UAF. I really appreciate the animators for putting in the effort to do that.

I quite enjoy watching Omniverse and I will not deny that there is a lot of effort put into the art, and I love how the artstyle allows for great character expression and smooth animation. I still think that the classic artstyle is the best artstyle in every way and suits the series more, but Omniverse is good as well.

However, what stood out to me was the alien redesigns. A lot of them just looked so goofy and hard to take seriously. With OS and even in Alien Force/Ultimate Alien, they were designed with a sense of “realism” and were so much more believable as actual alien beings despite being such diverse and crazy concepts on paper (aside from exceptions like Fasttrack and Rath). Omniverse stylised their aliens too much, giving many aliens a huge chin and/or buff bodies. It works for some I guess, but most of them look silly. Its good how they are now less humanoid which was a problem with some UAF designs, but the proportions are sometimes exaggerated. For instance, how does Four Arms even manage to support his large body mass on legs which look like sticks? Why is Alien X’s chin bigger than the rest of his head? And the clothing isn’t as well
implemented as the OS clothing, usually with a green belt with an Omnitrix slapped onto the alien.

Shocksquatch is a good example of what I’m taking about here:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10/images/8/85/HU_(996c).png/revision/latest?cb=20190412113935

This is what he looked like in his debut in the Heroes United Crossover.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10/images/a/a6/Shocksquatch_omniverse_official.png/revision/latest?cb=20210515162700

This is what he looked like in Omniverse. Can’t help but feel that they overdid the electric theme here to the point of even giving him a lightning shaped crest on his head, and he looks more like a buff guy in a fur suit here. The Heroes United one looks far more believable as an actual alien being which resembles a yeti.

@npzman If people don’t like the ship I have no problems at all with that. I just want us to get to the point where we can all respect each other’s opinions. For example, I detest the Gwevin ship myself because it makes no sense given that Kevin was a bit of a psycho in the original series and not once did he or Gwen show any care towards each other. More of the opposite actually since Kevin tried to kill Gwen twice for no real reason. When I rewatched Ultimate Alien, the excuses that Gwen was giving to Ben for Kevin’s behaviour...”He only hurts me when he’s absorbed too much power!”..those really started ringing alarm bells for me because that sounds eerily similar to an abusive relationship - what if Kevin starts absorbing Gwen’s powers again at any point because he’s tempted?

Despite all my misgivings about Gwevin, I still don’t mind at all if people support the pairing and don’t find that there is any point in attacking people over something which remains in fiction. It’s just that personally I cannot see how one can defend Gwevin at the same time as directing hate towards Bwen fans because the latter is apparently an unrealistic and immoral relationship. Truth be told you’re probably more likely to find someone in a relationship with their cousin than in a relationship with someone who tried to hurt them in the past. I just want all of us to be cool with each other’s opinions.

I will say that if they were siblings I certainly would not ship them as that is definitely delving into immoral territory even in different cultures.

It is officially a non-canon episode but only because of the existence of Alien Force.which obviously contradicts a lot of what happens in GBaGR.

For me though, it is the canon ending to Ben 10 in my heart (following Secret of the Omnitrix), or at least the Ben 10 which Man of Action and the rest of the writing team were working on. I feel that it is just so much more satisfying than any other finale of the other shows. We see Ben's summer finally ending, a return to normality for him along with an introduction to his parents, Ben finally managing to destroy Vilgax once and for all, and his secret being revealed to the world. The Omniverse finale was decent but as cool as it was to see the creation of the universe, it lacks the personal connection to Ben and his growth which GBaGR does so well.

I think that it was a fitting conclusion and I imagine that the sequel which the OS team were originally working on would've expanded on this and led up to Ben 10,000. I see Good Bye and Good Riddance as the original team showing their own ending to the series, even though it ended up being non-canon.

I do believe that Ben keeping a secret identity would be better for storytelling purposes though, and I wish that Alien Force had actually done that before his identity was revealed at the start of Ultimate Alien.

My personal favourite will always be the classic series. It felt the most unique and diverse to me and whenever I watch it I feel my childlike wonder coming back. UAF and Omniverse were more polished shows but didn't feel the same to me. I do have a soft spot for Omniverse because I went through some difficult times when I was a teenager and watching Omniverse always cheered me up, whether that be through the expressive art style or the character interactions between Ben and Rook. Although sometimes the adventures could get ridiculous, I still enjoyed it and it was certainly a breath of fresh air as @coreofthesun mentioned.

I can understand why people liked the UAF era the best, but it didn't appeal to me because it kept constantly trying to remind you that "This is a serious show" and a lot of the hype seemed to be built up around the characters having matured. It felt like a "What if DC made Ben 10?" concept except they actually made it into a series. The retcons were a bit blatant, at least Omniverse attempted to explain their retcons rather than shoving them in your face without explaining. I really wasn't a fan of how they changed Gwen into a boring and almost soft character especially given that OS Gwen was an inspiration to me to be strong and independent as a girl. Although Ultimate Alien felt like Alien Force lite, Gwen was way better as a character there. Story driven structures are good and I appreciate the Highbreed arc a lot more looking back on it, but the execution of it could've been better with such an excellent premise. Dwayne McDuffie (may his good soul rest in peace) was a talented writer and I like a lot of his work, but he took the series in a direction which wasn't really that of a sequel.

All the shows have their good points but in my heart the original continuity ended with "Goodbye and Good Riddance", with the others taking place in alternate universes (I do believe this theory because there is no way to explain the retcons otherwise). I would've loved a sequel show to the original in the style of Generator Rex which I think does a superior job at telling a story with a more mature tone while still balancing it with humour.

Wasn’t Kevin meant to be a vigilante parallel to Ben in the initial planned OS sequel Hero Generation? I believe that he and Charmcaster were meant to act as character foils who would challenge Ben and Gwen as characters due to the similarities. But yes, Kevin turning good does not suit him and he would’ve been far more interesting as a villain. I remember watching the episode “Ken 10” and future Kevin 11,000 hitting his own son and saying that he enjoyed hurting people was a cold moment which stuck in my head for a long time.

@npzman I do remember Charmcaster mentioning that Ben had a magical aura of sorts as well, meaning that he could be a sorcerer with enough practice in theory, but something tells me that he’d get way too impatient to bother with the slow learning curve of magic lol.

Wyatt isn’t exactly that reliable when it comes to lore and often contradicts himself. So yes, I would not believe everything that he says. I appreciate him for being one of the only people still willing to answer questions about the franchise but he can come off as a jerk sometimes.

As for the topic...ngl I would absolutely love a new sequel to the original series to do it the justice it deserves in terms of continuity and tone. I wouldn’t mind an Omniverse sequel or Ken 10 so long as they are engaging shows, and an Omniverse sequel to give some kind of conclusion to the original timeline would be the most logical option I suppose

@Mortie-10 Some of the redesigns were fine because they didn’t overstylise the aliens. Aliens like NRG and Clockwork are made more detailed in Omniverse which is nice, and Omniverse Ripjaws is infinitely better than the UAF catfish Ripjaws imo.

The Big Chill design turns him from an elegant yet creepy moth-like alien into a body builder who skipped leg day. Wildmutt has a massive chin for some reason and a dog collar of all things. Of all the new aliens in Omniverse, only Feedback and Gravattack looked convincing for me.

I respect DJWs artistic ability and his style of drawing is good by all means (it works very well in the 2003 Teen Titans), but I just don’t think that his alien designs work for Ben 10. Nobody beats Tom Perkins and the other original series artists in that regard, and honestly I would’ve liked to see some of Perkins’ non canon alien designs which imo look far better than many of the canon alien designs which we got.

It is officially a non-canon episode but only because of the existence of Alien Force.which obviously contradicts a lot of what happens in GBaGR.

For me though, it is the canon ending to Ben 10 in my heart (following Secret of the Omnitrix), or at least the Ben 10 which Man of Action and the rest of the writing team were working on. I feel that it is just so much more satisfying than any other finale of the other shows. We see Ben's summer finally ending, a return to normality for him along with an introduction to his parents, Ben finally managing to destroy Vilgax once and for all, and his secret being revealed to the world. The Omniverse finale was decent but as cool as it was to see the creation of the universe, it lacks the personal connection to Ben and his growth which GBaGR does so well.

I think that it was a fitting conclusion and I imagine that the sequel which the OS team were originally working on would've expanded on this and led up to Ben 10,000. I see Good Bye and Good Riddance as the original team showing their own ending to the series, even though it ended up being non-canon.

I do believe that Ben keeping a secret identity would be better for storytelling purposes though, and I wish that Alien Force had actually done that before his identity was revealed at the start of Ultimate Alien.

The idea of Plantapocalypse is both silly and terrifying at the same time. Imagine if the alien engulfed the world...

I really like Perkins' aliens, my personal favourites are Sandbox and Transmutor

Wasn’t Kevin meant to be a vigilante parallel to Ben in the initial planned OS sequel Hero Generation? I believe that he and Charmcaster were meant to act as character foils who would challenge Ben and Gwen as characters due to the similarities. But yes, Kevin turning good does not suit him and he would’ve been far more interesting as a villain. I remember watching the episode “Ken 10” and future Kevin 11,000 hitting his own son and saying that he enjoyed hurting people was a cold moment which stuck in my head for a long time.

@cooljay7 said in State of Cartoon Network:

@coreofthesun Yeah every current CN show looks the same.

@cooljay7 I think that this video by the Roundtable does a pretty solid job at talking about the lack of diversity of artstyles in animated shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XclDdSrcU4U

Especially with Cartoon Network. What I find interesting is that the Ben 10 reboot was actually meant to have a more anime inspired art style before executives told them to tone it down and simplify it. Which is honestly kinda sad.

Overall it is concerning that the art styles from over 10 years ago look better and more varied than the artstyle's today which look very same-y.

@Mortie-10 Some of the redesigns were fine because they didn’t overstylise the aliens. Aliens like NRG and Clockwork are made more detailed in Omniverse which is nice, and Omniverse Ripjaws is infinitely better than the UAF catfish Ripjaws imo.

The Big Chill design turns him from an elegant yet creepy moth-like alien into a body builder who skipped leg day. Wildmutt has a massive chin for some reason and a dog collar of all things. Of all the new aliens in Omniverse, only Feedback and Gravattack looked convincing for me.

I respect DJWs artistic ability and his style of drawing is good by all means (it works very well in the 2003 Teen Titans), but I just don’t think that his alien designs work for Ben 10. Nobody beats Tom Perkins and the other original series artists in that regard, and honestly I would’ve liked to see some of Perkins’ non canon alien designs which imo look far better than many of the canon alien designs which we got.

I quite enjoy watching Omniverse and I will not deny that there is a lot of effort put into the art, and I love how the artstyle allows for great character expression and smooth animation. I still think that the classic artstyle is the best artstyle in every way and suits the series more, but Omniverse is good as well.

However, what stood out to me was the alien redesigns. A lot of them just looked so goofy and hard to take seriously. With OS and even in Alien Force/Ultimate Alien, they were designed with a sense of “realism” and were so much more believable as actual alien beings despite being such diverse and crazy concepts on paper (aside from exceptions like Fasttrack and Rath). Omniverse stylised their aliens too much, giving many aliens a huge chin and/or buff bodies. It works for some I guess, but most of them look silly. Its good how they are now less humanoid which was a problem with some UAF designs, but the proportions are sometimes exaggerated. For instance, how does Four Arms even manage to support his large body mass on legs which look like sticks? Why is Alien X’s chin bigger than the rest of his head? And the clothing isn’t as well
implemented as the OS clothing, usually with a green belt with an Omnitrix slapped onto the alien.

Shocksquatch is a good example of what I’m taking about here:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10/images/8/85/HU_(996c).png/revision/latest?cb=20190412113935

This is what he looked like in his debut in the Heroes United Crossover.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10/images/a/a6/Shocksquatch_omniverse_official.png/revision/latest?cb=20210515162700

This is what he looked like in Omniverse. Can’t help but feel that they overdid the electric theme here to the point of even giving him a lightning shaped crest on his head, and he looks more like a buff guy in a fur suit here. The Heroes United one looks far more believable as an actual alien being which resembles a yeti.

Wyatt isn’t exactly that reliable when it comes to lore and often contradicts himself. So yes, I would not believe everything that he says. I appreciate him for being one of the only people still willing to answer questions about the franchise but he can come off as a jerk sometimes.

As for the topic...ngl I would absolutely love a new sequel to the original series to do it the justice it deserves in terms of continuity and tone. I wouldn’t mind an Omniverse sequel or Ken 10 so long as they are engaging shows, and an Omniverse sequel to give some kind of conclusion to the original timeline would be the most logical option I suppose

I love the original sequences so much but one thing I really appreciate about Omniverse is that when they didn’t do full detailed sequences, they always animated Ben morphing in real time rather than enveloping him in a green flash like in OS and UAF. I really appreciate the animators for putting in the effort to do that.

@npzman I do remember Charmcaster mentioning that Ben had a magical aura of sorts as well, meaning that he could be a sorcerer with enough practice in theory, but something tells me that he’d get way too impatient to bother with the slow learning curve of magic lol.

My personal favourite will always be the classic series. It felt the most unique and diverse to me and whenever I watch it I feel my childlike wonder coming back. UAF and Omniverse were more polished shows but didn't feel the same to me. I do have a soft spot for Omniverse because I went through some difficult times when I was a teenager and watching Omniverse always cheered me up, whether that be through the expressive art style or the character interactions between Ben and Rook. Although sometimes the adventures could get ridiculous, I still enjoyed it and it was certainly a breath of fresh air as @coreofthesun mentioned.

I can understand why people liked the UAF era the best, but it didn't appeal to me because it kept constantly trying to remind you that "This is a serious show" and a lot of the hype seemed to be built up around the characters having matured. It felt like a "What if DC made Ben 10?" concept except they actually made it into a series. The retcons were a bit blatant, at least Omniverse attempted to explain their retcons rather than shoving them in your face without explaining. I really wasn't a fan of how they changed Gwen into a boring and almost soft character especially given that OS Gwen was an inspiration to me to be strong and independent as a girl. Although Ultimate Alien felt like Alien Force lite, Gwen was way better as a character there. Story driven structures are good and I appreciate the Highbreed arc a lot more looking back on it, but the execution of it could've been better with such an excellent premise. Dwayne McDuffie (may his good soul rest in peace) was a talented writer and I like a lot of his work, but he took the series in a direction which wasn't really that of a sequel.

All the shows have their good points but in my heart the original continuity ended with "Goodbye and Good Riddance", with the others taking place in alternate universes (I do believe this theory because there is no way to explain the retcons otherwise). I would've loved a sequel show to the original in the style of Generator Rex which I think does a superior job at telling a story with a more mature tone while still balancing it with humour.