Ben 10 Reboot Discussion Part 1: Season 2

  • @offbeatcat Then you are mistaking criticism with blind hatred here. If you so badly want for the reboot to improve or for the franchise as a whole to improve, do what I do. Criticize it. Point out the issues that the reboot and the franchise has and then point out ways that you think could help fix these issues and improve the overall quality of the show and the franchise. That's what I always do. My articles that I post onto here and onto Deviant-art are legitimate examples of that. The last article that I made was about how to fix and improve Charmcaster. After I make my part 2 review of season 2 of the reboot, I plan to make another article about how to fix and improve the Ben 10 franchise as a whole. Sitting there trying to be positive and optimistic, hoping that it gets better, and ignoring the issues will get nothing done. Criticism is such an important tool to use in order to make improvements; in order for things to get better. If you want for Ben 10 to improve and get better, you have to criticize the issues that it has and then demand for improvement.

    As for my long comments, why do you think I make my comments long? I always follow the standards of making a persuasive argument, which hopefully you're learning about if you're currently taking a writing class in high school. I so often plan things out before I address my claims and views and then follow them up with logical reasoning and using evidence and examples. That's how you're supposed to be able to persuade people to support your arguments and agree with your views. That's how you cover as many angles and corners as possible. It's one of the best methods to get people to side with you, if not the best. That's why my comments are often long and it's also why I often rip apart the arguments that you and the other folks that despise me make. You don't do that sort of stuff. You either don't provide proper evidence or when you try to, it's terrible evidence. You guys just react and don't think and plan out first. You don't structure your arguments well. In fact, the others that you say are afraid to argue with me? They're not afraid to argue with me because I force my views down their throats. That's not what I usually do and I often try not doing that. They're afraid to argue with me because they don't seem to argue their points well enough and therefore it makes it more easy for me to dismantle their arguments. Take this as advice. You want to address your views in the best possible way? Look into what a persuasive argument is and follow the standards of making a persuasive argument. Remember what I said about criticism? I criticized your methods of arguing with me and then provided a means in which you can improve your arguments; especially if you're really going to follow up on that "Reboot talk" series.

  • @tactical-ochoa I fear becoming a smart-ass. You may be right in most regards, but at the same time, there are a few things you aren't factoring in. When you make really long arguments, some people are turned off to them, and as I've seen with many people, they don't want to read all that much text. Therefore, i condense things so i don't drag it all out too much, and get to the point. But i do know how to be a pessimist. If you want, i can just tear everything apart. like how the original series reuses the exact same transformation sequences over and over. How UA's ultimatrix was an underutilized gimmick. The fact that alien force's highbreed was bland and not super interesting. I could talk about how omniverse's first seasons are garbage because of their attempt at nonstop "humor". All in all, there are things i could say, but hanging around friends has taught me that sometimes, you need to factor in the fun factor. I am not a blind optimist. I'm only vocally positive here because nobody else is. But i could write long essays about the flaws of the reboot and how i would change them. I know how to do so, and i am more then familiar with the formalities of making a convincing argument. The thing is, i want this community to be welcoming to all people, even the ones who like the reboot. And with your general attitude, it scares away a larger audience due to how nobody can really make arguments or statements without you cutting in. If this were a private and exclusive group, i wouldn't have any issues with it. However, we shouldn't scare off the kids who like the reboot, or people with preferences that are unorthodox.
    On another note, i am understanding of your desire and need for critique. I really do. I didn't have many friends because i did that all the time. Nobody wanted to talk to me because i wouldn't stop pestering people and breaking down everything they said. I think being friendly would offer long term benefits, and help appeal to a larger audience then the "hardcore Ben 10 fans". And my reasoning for not commonly critiquing the show? MOA doesn't give a shit. As much as i hate it, nothing we do changes anything. We aren't powerful or influential. We're just a bunch of people. There's no real point in wasting my breath or typing out essays if nobody but a few people actually listen. Not many people actually comment here, because outside of critique of the reboot, not a lot happens here. I hope that was enough to make a point, but if you want me to type more sentences and make more arguments about my opinions, i can do so. I'm just trying not to alienate other people.

  • @offbeatcat And that's another issue that I have with you and some other folks. You give up too easily. Nothing we do changes anything? Have you not seen the backlash that came from fans and gamers that came with EA's Star Wars Battlefront 2 and lootboxes. It was because of that backlash that countries are going through the effort of including lootboxes into gambling regulation laws. It was because of fan feedback and criticisms that Resident Evil games went back to survival horror and the Resident Evil 2 Remake was put into development. It was because of fans boycotting from the poor quality of The Last Jedi and how Lucasfilms and the media have been negatively treating fan criticism of that film that the Star Wars: Solo film flopped in the box office. Battlefield 5's ridiculous customization and political correctness as well as the way that DICE developers and EA executives were treating those that criticized the game for these elements that led to Battlefield 5 losing 85% of their pre-orders, thus causing EA and DICE to backpedal on that game in an attempt to salvage it. If Cartoon Network and Man of Action doesn't care about what we think, they're eventually going to find out the hard way that they do need to care. Cartoon Network is still going on a decline. More and more people are getting fed up with how Cartoon Network is handling things and thus are leaving CN to look for other, better sources of animated entertainment. Just look at the Powerpuff Girls reboot. It's pretty much dead because pretty much everyone disliked that show and therefore decided not to watch it and buy its merchandise. If you want for Cartoon Network and Man of Action to care about what we have to say, you need to keep persisting with your criticisms and demands for improvement.

  • The problem I also see with the current reboot is the 11 minute episode structure. It works good if you are working on a comedy cartoon show but not always good with a plot driven show. If you try to make a plot oriented show you have to makes cuts to make it fit into 11 minutes or some cases make some rush jobs.

  • @ultraalien And for some reason they even decided to structure the specials into 11 minute parts instead of just airing the entire specials in one full segment, which hurts the specials a little because even they ended up having pacing issues because of how they're split up into 11 minute parts.

  • @tactical-ochoa I have been persisting for....hmm....i dunno, since omniverse! I've sent email after email, written essay after essay, and nothing happens. Nothing changes. I am sick and tired of wasting my time complaining. Seeing as we're stuck with this reboot, i'd at least like to look at the positives. There may not be many, but at the very least the show has some promise. Although season 2 was a disappointment, and the show could really use an overhaul. Ultimately, it now falls on MOA to listen, rather then us to restate the obvious.

  • As the reboot is headed down a slippery slope, i'd like to ask you all this question: How can MOA course correct this and put it back on track? Within the context of the show, i mean.

  • @offbeatcat How can they improve the reboot show?

  • @tactical-ochoa exactly. i'm posing the question to everyone

  • @offbeatcat Christ, where to even begin with this show.

  • Ok so in regards to how Man of Action can improve the Ben 10 reboot through season 3, there's a lot of things that would have to be done. First off would have to be the story. Season 3 CAN NOT be just another season where we get villain-of-the-week filler episodes followed by an around one hour long season finale split into 11 minute parts that have the closest to resembling an actual overarching story that we've been getting with the first two seasons. There needs to be an overarching story that spans throughout the entire season. Episode 1 of season 3 needs to introduce a major story plot and at least most of the entire season needs to stick to that plot. However, the problem with that is that season 3 is most likely going to be another 40 episodes that are each 11 minutes long. With so many episodes, there's a chance that the major story plot could likely end up dragging out and the 11 minute episode run time would likely create issues with the pacing...which we already saw with the first two seasons already. Therefore, I say that it would be better for season 3 to be somewhere between 10 and 20 episodes that each span a length of 30 to 60 minutes.

    Then there are the characters. Ben needs to grow as a character. His tendency often to cause situations to happen in the first place and to often make situations worse than they should be needs to go. Ben needs to have more maturity and responsibility in him. He can still be cocky and fun-loving but they need to tone that down and introduce more maturity and responsibility into him to balance that out. This leads up to Gwen. Gwen needs to put her foot down more and be more stern and serious whenever Ben is causing more shenanigans. That was one of the aspects about Gwen than made her at her best. She kept Ben in check. She kept Ben focused on the task at hand. Gwen being the voice of reason and being hard on Ben whenever he did something stupid helped Ben become a better character and hero. Her lacking that in the reboot is one of the major aspects about her that greatly undermines Gwen as a character.

    Tone down the comedic elements as well; especially in the action scenes. It's fine to have some comedic elements but there's too much of it in the Ben 10 reboot and it undermines the action scenes because it makes the action scenes feel devoid of tension and a sense of danger. They're action scenes. We should be getting the feeling that people's lives are at stake. We should be concerned for the well-being of the main characters. That can't happen if the action scenes often feel like a comedy act.

    Whatever unnecessary, toy-selling gimmick they're going to throw out next also needs to go. That is not a good way to add quality content to Ben 10. A gimmick is a freakin gimmick. Shock Rock was an example of that. He was an unnecessary alien to add to Ben's roster when there are already plenty of other, better, more unique and interesting electric and energy based aliens that have already been introduced in past shows that CN Studios and Man of Action could've easily brought back and would've worked out a lot better. The Omni-Enhancements were also just as much unnecessary to have around as the Ultimate Forms from Ultimate Alien. The real reason that Shock Rock and the Omni-Enhancements exists were to sell more toys. If what they plan to bring into season 3 is really only there just to advertise and sell more toys, it needs to go. If Man of Action wants to introduce better quality content to season 3 of the Ben 10 reboot, they could easily do this by providing a good story with well-written characters, tense and well-directed action scenes, interesting lore and world building, interesting and unique and useful aliens, etc etc etc. That's why the Original Series made billions in merchandise during its run and is still considered by many, if not most, fans to be the best show in the franchise.

    There's still many more aspects and elements of the Ben 10 reboot that need to be fixed and improved as well but this comment is already going to be long enough as it is and there's a lot that I want to save for when I plan to make my next article. Regardless though, I doubt that Man of Action and CN Studios are going to be able to do much to change and improve season 3 now. After season 2 finished production, production for season 3 started and that was a while back. My guess is that season 3 is almost done in production and going through with such a drastic revision is something that Cartoon Network isn't really going to favor much as it would put season 3 on such a significant delay and everything done up to now would be seen as a waste of time and resources, which to the CN executives means a waste of money. Considering that season 2 very much had the same issues as season 1 had, more issues with the writing were created, and very little improvements to the show were made, I don't see season 3 going to be any better than season 1 and 2. Most likely were just going to get more of the same stuff with season 3 and therefore more of the same issues.

  • @tactical-ochoa I don't think you can do sophisticated writing with a show based on 11 minutes since the current Ben 10 Reboot is based around primarily on comedy.

  • @ultraalien That's why I said that episodes need to be between 30 and 60 minutes long each. You can make good stories with 11 minutes but they would have to be more simple and not a lot has to go on because there's such a short amount of time. The more complex the story is and/or the more that's going on in the episode, the longer the episode needs to be.

  • @ungrateful-wolf Yes because that's certainly something that Kevin, the show itself, and the franchise as a whole really needs. If Kevin really is going to have his own Omnitrix in the reboot, that tells me that it's most likely that he no longer has his original powers. If that really is the case, that means that Man of Action and the other reboot show writers are taking away one of the key aspects about Kevin that defined him at his best. That they're taking away a major component that defined Kevin as a character. That they're taking away what makes Kevin, well, Kevin. Yeah, given how the reboot show and its writers has treated and undermined every returning character (with the exception of Dr. Animo), I have a feeling that they're going to screw up Kevin as well. If Kevin does have his energy absorbing powers, then WHY DOES HE NEED HIS OWN OMNITRIX?!

  • Yeesh, no need to be this negative. I know it can be upsetting for some, but damn.

    Seems they're using the original plan for Kevin to have an Omnitrix this time around, like Stinkfly being "Dragonfly" (both are voiced by Cipes lol), interested to see how it goes

  • @ungrateful-wolf And as I said on the Tv Tropes forum (which I will paste on here), if Man of Action really intended for Kevin to have his own Omnitrix in the OS, ok then. Two things comes to mind though. One, will Kevin having his own Omnitrix really work well for him as a character and for the show overall? Part of me doubts that considering the poor writing and execution that usually plagues the reboot show. Two, why do you think Kevin ended up not having his own Omnitrix in the OS? Probably because the OS writers saw that it wasn't a good idea and wouldn't work for the OS, which just further fuels my doubt that this direction for Kevin will work in the reboot.

    These elements that didn't make it into the OS didn't make it into the OS for a reason. The OS crew knew that it wouldn't work well for the show. Stinkfly's original design didn't make it into the OS because the writers knew that it wouldn't work and the reboot prominently showed why it indeed didn't work for Stinkfly. Most fans and viewers that I've come across don't like Stinkfly's reboot design because it was a bland, generic, and out-of-place design that doesn't fit the fact that Stinkfly is an alien. That's one of the things about the reboot. Man of Action took pre-concept (or beta or whatever) elements that didn't make it into the OS and introduced them into the reboot forgetting as to why those pre-concept elements didn't make it into the OS. They weren't going to work well for the OS and the reboot proved that very point. With that taken into consideration, along with how the reboot show and its writers screwed up almost every returning character, I very much doubt that Kevin having his own Omnitrix is going to work. Looking at these factors, I find it more likely that Kevin in the reboot is just going to be like almost every other returning character being that he, too, will be a bland shell of his former self. Like I said, if Kevin having his own Omnitrix means that he's going to lose his energy absorption powers, then Kevin isn't Kevin. Kevin would lose something that defined him at his best and made him Kevin. If Kevin is going to keep his powers, then why does he need his own Omnitrix? If Kevin is going to keep his powers, then there's no reason for him to have his own Omnitrix because his powers would provide him with what having his own Omnitrix would provide, if not more. The way that I see it, Man of Action and the other writers put little to no thought into this. They implemented this very direction into Kevin while taking little to no consideration as to how this would actually affect and impact him as a character.

  • @Tactical-Ochoa (I had replied to you on reddit, but decided to reply here instead)

    If we look at Kevin in the OS, the only case I remember of him actually absorbing non-alien energy is when he absorbed electricity in his very first appearance, and it was only in the beginning of the episode. Later, all he did was absorb alien energy and use alien forms. He emulated Ben's alien forms in "Framed", then he became an amalgam of Ben's aliens by the end of the episode, and, in the future, he became Kevin 11.000 (an even more dangerous amalgam of aliens).

    To differentiate Kevin's power-set from Ben's, the sequels (AF/UA/OV) heavily downplayed the alien side, and focused on the absorbing side - they made him absorb matter, which wasn't even part of his original power-set. Then the sequels introduced Albedo to fill Kevin's original role.

    Kevin having an Omnitrix doesn't change much of Kevin's OS power-set. With an Omnitrix, Kevin can emulate Ben's aliens like he did in Framed, and he can become an amalgam creature (that happened to Ben in Innervasion, it can easily happen to Kevin too).

    It's like what the MCU did with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. They are mutants in the comics, but since they couldn't use mutants in the film, they made them be genetic experiments. It changed the origin of their powers, but it didn't change their powerset itself.

    Why MOA is doing that? I might be very wrong, but my guess is that they want to distance their Kevin from UAF/OV Kevin, because what the sequels did to him was never their plan, and present him as a "dark mirror" of Ben like they always wanted - and giving him an Omnitrix is a way to visually establish that to the viewers (like the sequels did with Albedo).

  • @csgt Yes, the sequel shows certainly downplayed Kevin's powers, which is something that I wasn't fond of and found to not make much or any sense. Actually, no, Kevin's powers didn't really change in the sequel shows. Absorbing matter wasn't a change. It was an addition. Kevin's mutated form in Alien Force season 3 was more of a short term temporary lock to his powers than an actual, full on, permanent change to his powers (which was due to the Omnitrix, which also didn't make much sense to me). Once the original Omnitrix was destroyed, Kevin's powers returned to normal. That lock was lifted and Kevin was back to his old self. That's the most, and pretty much only time, his powers have ever changed. Other than the absorbing matter ability that was added to Kevin, his powers from the Original Series were at least mostly consistent throughout the sequel shows. Kevin's powers weren't really downplayed. Stuff was just added to them in a way that didn't make much sense to me. Kevin's powers had always been focused on absorbing some form of energy and mutating from absorbing too much energy.

    If the reboot writers are indeed removing Kevin's energy absorption powers in exchange for him having his own Omnitrix, then yes, Kevin having his own Omnitrix does change his power set. It does downplay Kevin's abilities because Kevin can no longer absorb energy, thus greatly limiting his level of power. If Kevin's Omnitrix does work the same way that Ben's Omnitrix does (which I'm guessing will most likely be the case), then that limits Kevin's capabilities. It nerfs Kevin into being somewhere around Ben's level (although, that is dependent on what aliens Kevin can use and whether or not he could splice them together into some amalgamation). Kevin having an Omnitrix limits his level of power to what he has access to; especially compared to Kevin's energy absorption ability, which allows Kevin to become more and more powerful the more energy he absorbs. It could kill at least most of the tension that comes from Ben and Kevin fighting each other because, again, Kevin having his own Omnitrix puts him around the same level that Ben is at, thus making Kevin less of a threat compared to him being able to absorb energy (although again, that is if Kevin's Omnitrix works the same way as Ben's Omnitrix, which I'm guessing is going to be the case in the reboot show).

    And your example with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch is terrible. Like you said, the MCU changed their origins but not their powers. Their powers remain the same. Kevin's energy absorption powers being removed and replaced by him having his own Omnitrix does change his powers. In fact, Kevin wouldn't even have any powers. Kevin having his own Omnitrix would be like if Quicksilver's superhuman speed was taken away from him in exchange for having high tech boots that allows him to run fast. It would be like if Superman's powers were removed and replaced by Superman wearing power armor and a jet pack.

    Man of Action wanted for Kevin to be like how he was in the sequel shows. According to Duncan Rouleau here, Man of Action had always planned for Kevin to be an anti-hero, like how he was in UAF and OV. Given what Rouleau said, I wouldn't even be surprised if Man of Action make Kevin a good guy again...if he even is going to be evil in the reboot show.
    Also, Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix to further mirror Ben. They did that with Albedo and it didn't work as well as Kevin did in the Original Series. Albedo was just an evil Galvan with Ben's appearance and a replica of the original Omnitrix. That's not a proper, evil counterpart to Ben. Albedo was an entirely different character compared to Ben. OS Kevin was the true, ideal dark mirror image of Ben and OS Kevin never had his own Omnitrix during that time. Kevin paralleled Ben in some ways but also differed from Ben as well. Kevin was a reminder to Ben of what Ben could've become if it weren't for his first meeting with Kevin. Kevin to Ben was like The Joker to Batman. Ben's view of Kevin was like Luke Skywalker's vision of Darth Vader on Dagobah in Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back. Do you see The Joker don some sort of uniform or battle suit that looks similar to Batman's outfit? No. Do you see Luke Skywalker wear a full armored suit like Vader does? No. Objects don't always present two characters being proper opposites to each other and I don't find that to be subtle either. It comes down to the characters themselves and their personalities and traits, which I find has a better chance of being more subtle. When symbolism and whatnot is shoved into the viewers' faces, usually it could end up being seen as intrusive and insulting of the viewers' intelligence. I find it better to be more subtle and put confidence in the viewers to be able to figure stuff out. Kevin doesn't need his own Omnitrix in order to be a better representation of being a dark mirror image of Ben and the Original Series is proof of that.

    Going back to Kevin's powers being removed and replaced by him having his own Omnitrix, taking away Kevin's powers does a lot more to Kevin than just change his power set. It changes Kevin as a character. In the context of the Original Series, Kevin was kicked out by his family because of his powers. Kevin was bullied and treated like a freak by others because of his powers. Kevin's mental instability and insanity as well as his psychopathic behavior was there because of his powers. Kevin's ability to absorb energy was a huge and long term fundamental aspect about him that made and defined Kevin for who he is. Take away those powers and Kevin isn't Kevin anymore. Take away those powers and you take away Kevin as a character.

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