Ben 10 Reboot Discussion Part 1: Season 2

[jordancon2000]

Season 2 Finale: Innervasion will premiere on CN Asia on Sept. 22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqUeudUQRh8

[jondennison72]

I wonder when they're gonna show the 5 part of Ben 10 Reboot season 2 Finale "Innervasion" when it aired on Youtube.com or Cartoon Network?

[Ungrateful-Wolf]

They did, we simply missed it

[Offbeatcat]

Reboots are not tied to previous series canon. This is a new universe, and if they want to turn the omnitrix into an inter-dimensional gateway for a plot, they can do that. It may be strange, but if we give the show a proper chance, it might be interesting.

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat Plenty of people, including me, already gave the reboot show a proper chance and yet ratings for the show are still low and from what I've seen, many or most people don't find it to be a good show.

And sure, if they want to turn the Omnitrix into an inter-dimensional gateway, they can...but should they do that? Should they do that to the Omnitrix? Should they introduce that into the show? Is it something that the show needs? Is it something that the franchise needs? There's a lot of things that can be done in a show/movie/video game/etc. but shouldn't be done. They can add Shock Rock to the show if they want to but they shouldn't have because Shock Rock is just another electric and energy based alien and we already had many other of those types of aliens introduced into the franchise already. Shock Rock is an unnecessary gimmick that's really only meant to sell more merchandise and adds little to nothing to the show that we haven't seen before. It's not just Ben 10 either. Doom (2016) almost became just another generic shooter reminiscent of games such as Call of Duty but id Software realized that that's a direction that shouldn't be taken for Doom and thus they went with the game that we got instead...and it worked out very well for them and us. Capcom could've continued with having the Resident Evil franchise be action-oriented but due to the reception of plenty of the action-oriented Resident Evil games, Capcom realized that they needed to go back to survival horror with Resident Evil 7 and it worked out well for them and for Resident Evil fans. Again, Man of Action and Cartoon Network Studios can do a lot of things and go down all sorts of various directions with the Ben 10 reboot but the real question is should they do these things and go down these very directions?

[Offbeatcat]

This franchise isn't the same franchise. Times are changing. To them, it's a clean slate. In this show, ben hasn't had an energy alien yet. And i think that shock rock's inclusion is forgivable, due to the interesting way they utilized it in the finale of the season. Why did i like it? Ben's reckless use of the watch had a consequence. Trying to mess with the watch caused him to lose upgrade, yes, but it seemed like shock rock was just a shoehorned in alien. While he is that, the sample is like a beacon, meaning whenever ben used that power, he was making a map to his planet. Something that, once Ben begins losing control of the alien, he is forced to confront. The omnitrix is a portal because he "upgraded" it into such a thing, without knowing what he was doing. In the end, the whole mess was his fault, and the situation did develop his character. While there was still some dumb stuff in that finale, it was a positive step. The writers seem to be getting a better idea of how to tell stories, and i'm proud of them. I kinda wish glitch had died off though, because we don't need 2 bens, and it could've been good for ben to see more consequences, but i'm happy with what we got.

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat Isn't the same franchise? What in the world were you smoking when you typed that? It's called "Ben 10." It's in the freakin name. Yes, it's part of the same exact franchise. Yes, this is still the same franchise that we've been seeing since 2005. The Resident Evil live action films took a different direction than the games yet it's still part of the same franchise. The 2005 Doom film took a different approach yet it was still part of the same Doom franchise. Games such as Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Call of Duty Black Ops 4 take different directions compared to previous games yet they're still part of the same respective franchises. These are just some examples.

Also, it had always been established that Ben's reckless use of the Omnitrix...no, in fact, Ben's recklessness in general...led to negative consequences. It's been established since the Original Series. The difference with the reboot, however, is that Ben either barely or never learned from his mistakes. There's a constant, repeating trend in the reboot of Ben causing many of the very situations that he encounters to happen in the first place. Many many times Ben has put others in danger. Many many times Ben kept making situations even worse than they should be and yet he kept making those same mistakes. Ben's recklessness in the reboot has consequences but he doesn't actually learn from them.

And don't even dare give me that excuse that times are changing and that it's a clean slate because that doesn't matter for the overall quality of the show. It doesn't make the very flaws that the reboot has any less significant and relevant. It doesn't make the reboot show itself any better. It doesn't stop anyone from continuing to compare the reboot show to any of the past shows in the Ben 10 franchise. Times have changed for the Terminator franchise when Genisys rebooted said franchise and Genisys was seen as terrible and people still compared it to Terminator 1 and 2. Times have changed for Star Wars when Disney acquired it and yet The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi still copied many elements from the Original Trilogy and people are still comparing Disney's take on Star Wars to pre-Disney Star Wars. Times have changed for the Tomb Raider franchise when it was rebooted yet the reboot trilogy still lacked in many areas and many people still compared it to previous Tomb Raider games. Times have changed for the Powerpuff Girls series yet the PPG reboot was considered by pretty much almost everyone to be one of Cartoon Network's worse shows in its history and people also still compared the PPG reboot to the original PPG. Ever heard of the saying, "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Change does not always lead to good. Change can make things worse. That's why I value improvement over change. In fact, the Ben 10 reboot is, of course, a reboot. People want for reboots and remakes to be improvements over the original source materials. That's the intended purpose of the Ben 10 reboot being a reboot: to be an improvement over all of the previous shows, changes or not.

Oh, by the way, I just recently finished watching Innervasion. It is not a positive step for the show. Out of all the specials that the reboot had so far, Innervasion was the worse. So many blatant inconsistencies with the writing. Such a lack of tension. The writers are not getting a better idea of how to tell stories. In fact, the only times where they decided to try and be more competent and try to make something even remotely good were in those very specials. Every other episode of season 2 of the Ben 10 reboot is just more of the same stuff that we've been getting from season 1 and as such still have more of the same issues that season 1 episodes had with new issues to pile up on that. The writers are not improving here. They're not getting better.

You can say all you want that "times are changing" and "it's a clean slate" and something so stupid such as "this franchise isn't the same franchise" but that does not make the reboot show any better in it's quality. That does not make the issues with the reboot show any less significant and relevant. That is no excuse for the sheer incompetency that was displayed when making this very show.

[Offbeatcat]

@tactical-ochoa If you hate it so much, why are you watching it then? You're writing essays to tell everyone how much YOU hate this show, and we aren't allowed to have different views of it. The way i see it, this community only exists to talk about how bad the reboot is and how much you wish every episode was of the exact caliber of the original show. We get it. You hate this reboot with a burning passion. it will never be what you want it to be, and i think it's about time we all grow up and accept that it is not going to change. Man of action is allowed to make this show a kids show, and it doesn't have to be made so you will like it. kids watch it. They buy the toys. They'll keep doing this. We need to stop crying over spilled milk and accept that this is a kids show, not some story telling epic. They have changed perspective and style of stories, but you whine because it's not for you. This show is for a new generation, and while you might not like it, kids will. This is how it is going to be, and you cannot change that by pitching a fit.

[Offbeatcat]

And this is, in fact, a new franchise in the sense that the rules have changed, and they aren't bound by any of your "standards." Go back to writing fanfiction, since then you can indulge yourself with the content you want. I think i speak for a majority when i say that nobody wants to hear you being a baby about this.

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat One of the major reasons I continue to watch it is because it provides material for my future articles. Because when I want to persuade people with my claims and arguments, I want to be as well-informed as possible. My last article covered ways that I think could help fix and improve Charmcaster as a character. I pretty much have to watch The Charm Offensive if I'm going to discuss about Charmcaster.

The community only exists to talk about how bad the reboot is? Quite the generalization there. No, the Ben 10 community exists because of the franchise itself. Because people want to support the franchise due to how much they like it. Granted, most of the Ben 10 community wouldn't be talking about how bad the reboot is if the reboot wasn't a bad show. And yeah, I do want for the reboot show to be on the same exact caliber of quality or even better than the Original Series. It's a reboot. Again, as I stated before, the intended purpose of a reboot is to be an improvement over the original source material. Man of Action is indeed allowed to make the reboot show how they want for it to be. Doesn't make it any better of a show. And really, kids watch it? I recall hearing plenty of instances of kids not liking the Ben 10 reboot and not buying the toys. Yes, it's for a new generation and apparently much of the new generation don't like it.

The rules have changed for many franchises and yet it still doesn't matter. Just look at the examples that I listed. And go back to writing fan fiction? Never wrote a fanfic in my life. You speak for a majority? My views on the Ben 10 reboot and the franchise as a whole have the highest amount of views on this website. I have the highest upvotes on this website. Many of the people that follow me on Twitter and Deviant-art do so because of my views on Ben 10. I've got good reception from the folks at the Ben 10 Reddit over my views. Most people that have read my views on the Ben 10 reboot and the franchise as a whole don't disagree with them. Out of all of the users on this website, the only people that I've seen take issue with my views are the same around 5 people that constantly complain about me, including you. I have seen no one else that complains about me on here. No other user. You're not in the majority. You're part of the minority.

[Offbeatcat]

@tactical-ochoa You have the most votes because you've been around the longest. You see what you want to see. And a lot of the people who take issue with you are the people who are most commonly online. People have left this server because of you. You were demoted from moderator because of this attitude. By being this way, you are excluding people. You say some kids don't like it, but a lot of kids I've met seem to love the reboot. My friends like the reboot as well. This reboot doesn't want to be the original, and it doesn't have to be. you have supporters, of course, but again, so do i. I have a lot of friends myself, and a lot of people agree on my optimistic look on the reboot. My video on the channel has more likes then dislikes. And people are afraid to argue with you because you always write these long and over the top paragraphs to force people to agree with you.
YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. the community is being used mostly by you, and you mostly just talk shit about the reboot. A reboot can be multiple things. A reboot isn't just meant to be an improvement. It can also be a fresh start. As someone who knows the industry, a lot of people do buy the toys, so again, you might not know the new generation as well as you think. you say i'm a minority? Maybe, but you cannot control my opinions. I am entitled to say what i want without you trying to beat me down for speaking my mind.

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat And yes, you are entitled to say whatever you want. You liking the reboot is not what I take issue with. What I take issue with is that you are using the excuse that the reboot is a fresh start to make the issues that it has seem less significant and relevant. That's what I'm taking issue with your arguments the most. If you want to be optimistic about the reboot, go on ahead. You have every right to do so but viewing it as a fresh start does not make it better. No, I'm not always right. That's been proven plenty of times before. And no, me being here the longest has nothing to do with people making their decisions to give me upvotes. I receive upvotes because people agree with me. Because people on here like the things that I say on here. And wow, 28 likes to 4 dislikes. Yeah, that really adds up against the hundreds of thousands of views, the almost 300 upvotes, the good reception I got on the Ben 10 Reddit, etc etc etc. that I've accumulated. "A lot of kids that you met" don't represent the overall general consensus of Ben 10 fans and viewers. Yes, some people have unfortunately left this website. Yes, there are still plenty of things that I need to improve on. Yet regardless, we're still receiving new members on this website and I've been having more and more discussions with more and more people within the Ben 10 fan base. Yeah, I'm really doing such a good job here excluding people, aren't I?

You're telling me to judge the show on its own merits. I did. You're constantly reminding me that the reboot show is a fresh start. I've known that since it was first announced. No matter how many times you say that, it doesn't make the issues that the show has any less significant and relevant. It doesn't make the show better. Yet you keep saying that as if it does make the show better. I can agree that I get too biased towards the Original Series at times but you're certainly biased towards the reboot as well.

[Offbeatcat]

@tactical-ochoa i'm trying to give it a chance. I DON'T EVEN LIKE IT MUCH. Yeah, i hate the reboot with a burning passion. But i just feel like there isn't anyone here trying to be positive or trying to stand up for it. If nobody else wants to, somebody in this broad community has to. I don't want this place to become a place where we continuously shit on the reboot. i think that, on it's own merits, it is indeed generic, and it is indeed subpar, but it's taking steps. Management has changed, and this new show is having to stand on its own feet, and needs to learn. But i think there needs to be a balance. If you're always staying bad stuff about it, i want to be able to keep the show at least in a neutral light. I may not like it much but...I respect the creators of the original, and the company that created ben 10 is allowed to make their own choices, as strange or questionable as they are. I feel that you're so...visible that your opinions sort of loom over others. I think you should at least...try sounding nicer. i want this to be a friendly and welcoming place for all fans, and i think that...maybe not try to tear apart arguments every time one is made? You just...need to let people speak without trying to share your thoughts on it all the time.

[Offbeatcat]

In fact, i WANT to be really vicious and negative to it. THIS SHOW IS A MOCKERY OF MY CHILDHOOD MOST OF THE TIME. IT RARELY SHOWS QUALITY CONTROL AND I JUST SO BADLY WANT IT TO IMPROVE. I WANT IT TO DO BETTER AND I WANT MAN OF ACTION TO GIVE A SHIT! I WANT THEM TO REALLY TRY! I HAVE A LOT OF HATRED. But...talking about how much i hate it and how little i like about it won't fix anything or change anything. It's better to look at the few glimmers of hope we have.

[Offbeatcat]

essentially, i just want to give this show the benefit of the doubt, and keep an open mind, and see the show for what it is.

[Offbeatcat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coo_v3qrynU&
I think that i should make another video of this sort. Now that season 2 is done, and i've had more experience with writing, I'd like to try to make "Reboot talk" a series. Any ideas for topics i could discuss?

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat Then you are mistaking criticism with blind hatred here. If you so badly want for the reboot to improve or for the franchise as a whole to improve, do what I do. Criticize it. Point out the issues that the reboot and the franchise has and then point out ways that you think could help fix these issues and improve the overall quality of the show and the franchise. That's what I always do. My articles that I post onto here and onto Deviant-art are legitimate examples of that. The last article that I made was about how to fix and improve Charmcaster. After I make my part 2 review of season 2 of the reboot, I plan to make another article about how to fix and improve the Ben 10 franchise as a whole. Sitting there trying to be positive and optimistic, hoping that it gets better, and ignoring the issues will get nothing done. Criticism is such an important tool to use in order to make improvements; in order for things to get better. If you want for Ben 10 to improve and get better, you have to criticize the issues that it has and then demand for improvement.

As for my long comments, why do you think I make my comments long? I always follow the standards of making a persuasive argument, which hopefully you're learning about if you're currently taking a writing class in high school. I so often plan things out before I address my claims and views and then follow them up with logical reasoning and using evidence and examples. That's how you're supposed to be able to persuade people to support your arguments and agree with your views. That's how you cover as many angles and corners as possible. It's one of the best methods to get people to side with you, if not the best. That's why my comments are often long and it's also why I often rip apart the arguments that you and the other folks that despise me make. You don't do that sort of stuff. You either don't provide proper evidence or when you try to, it's terrible evidence. You guys just react and don't think and plan out first. You don't structure your arguments well. In fact, the others that you say are afraid to argue with me? They're not afraid to argue with me because I force my views down their throats. That's not what I usually do and I often try not doing that. They're afraid to argue with me because they don't seem to argue their points well enough and therefore it makes it more easy for me to dismantle their arguments. Take this as advice. You want to address your views in the best possible way? Look into what a persuasive argument is and follow the standards of making a persuasive argument. Remember what I said about criticism? I criticized your methods of arguing with me and then provided a means in which you can improve your arguments; especially if you're really going to follow up on that "Reboot talk" series.

[Offbeatcat]

@tactical-ochoa I fear becoming a smart-ass. You may be right in most regards, but at the same time, there are a few things you aren't factoring in. When you make really long arguments, some people are turned off to them, and as I've seen with many people, they don't want to read all that much text. Therefore, i condense things so i don't drag it all out too much, and get to the point. But i do know how to be a pessimist. If you want, i can just tear everything apart. like how the original series reuses the exact same transformation sequences over and over. How UA's ultimatrix was an underutilized gimmick. The fact that alien force's highbreed was bland and not super interesting. I could talk about how omniverse's first seasons are garbage because of their attempt at nonstop "humor". All in all, there are things i could say, but hanging around friends has taught me that sometimes, you need to factor in the fun factor. I am not a blind optimist. I'm only vocally positive here because nobody else is. But i could write long essays about the flaws of the reboot and how i would change them. I know how to do so, and i am more then familiar with the formalities of making a convincing argument. The thing is, i want this community to be welcoming to all people, even the ones who like the reboot. And with your general attitude, it scares away a larger audience due to how nobody can really make arguments or statements without you cutting in. If this were a private and exclusive group, i wouldn't have any issues with it. However, we shouldn't scare off the kids who like the reboot, or people with preferences that are unorthodox.
On another note, i am understanding of your desire and need for critique. I really do. I didn't have many friends because i did that all the time. Nobody wanted to talk to me because i wouldn't stop pestering people and breaking down everything they said. I think being friendly would offer long term benefits, and help appeal to a larger audience then the "hardcore Ben 10 fans". And my reasoning for not commonly critiquing the show? MOA doesn't give a shit. As much as i hate it, nothing we do changes anything. We aren't powerful or influential. We're just a bunch of people. There's no real point in wasting my breath or typing out essays if nobody but a few people actually listen. Not many people actually comment here, because outside of critique of the reboot, not a lot happens here. I hope that was enough to make a point, but if you want me to type more sentences and make more arguments about my opinions, i can do so. I'm just trying not to alienate other people.

[Tactical Ochoa]

@offbeatcat And that's another issue that I have with you and some other folks. You give up too easily. Nothing we do changes anything? Have you not seen the backlash that came from fans and gamers that came with EA's Star Wars Battlefront 2 and lootboxes. It was because of that backlash that countries are going through the effort of including lootboxes into gambling regulation laws. It was because of fan feedback and criticisms that Resident Evil games went back to survival horror and the Resident Evil 2 Remake was put into development. It was because of fans boycotting from the poor quality of The Last Jedi and how Lucasfilms and the media have been negatively treating fan criticism of that film that the Star Wars: Solo film flopped in the box office. Battlefield 5's ridiculous customization and political correctness as well as the way that DICE developers and EA executives were treating those that criticized the game for these elements that led to Battlefield 5 losing 85% of their pre-orders, thus causing EA and DICE to backpedal on that game in an attempt to salvage it. If Cartoon Network and Man of Action doesn't care about what we think, they're eventually going to find out the hard way that they do need to care. Cartoon Network is still going on a decline. More and more people are getting fed up with how Cartoon Network is handling things and thus are leaving CN to look for other, better sources of animated entertainment. Just look at the Powerpuff Girls reboot. It's pretty much dead because pretty much everyone disliked that show and therefore decided not to watch it and buy its merchandise. If you want for Cartoon Network and Man of Action to care about what we have to say, you need to keep persisting with your criticisms and demands for improvement.

[ultraalien]

The problem I also see with the current reboot is the 11 minute episode structure. It works good if you are working on a comedy cartoon show but not always good with a plot driven show. If you try to make a plot oriented show you have to makes cuts to make it fit into 11 minutes or some cases make some rush jobs.