Despite all my misgivings about Gwevin, I still don’t mind at all if people support the pairing and don’t find that there is any point in attacking people over something which remains in fiction. It’s just that personally I cannot see how one can defend Gwevin at the same time as directing hate towards Bwen fans because the latter is apparently an unrealistic and immoral relationship. Truth be told you’re probably more likely to find someone in a relationship with their cousin than in a relationship with someone who tried to hurt them in the past. I just want all of us to be cool with each other’s opinions.

I will say that if they were siblings I certainly would not ship them as that is definitely delving into immoral territory even in different cultures.

Although I'm not a Bwen shipper, I can perfectly understand why people ship them and given that a large amount of the fanbase is from the US, it is the taboo against cousin relationships which causes such outcry. Another part of the "ew" outlook towards Bwen seems to be the infamy that the fandom has acquired because of the R34 fanart of the 10 year old versions of Ben and Gwen doing...inappropriate stuff. What people don't understand is that there are Bwen shippers like yourself who ship them not because of the NSFW stuff, but because you care for them as characters first and foremost.

Yet because of the whole incest issue, Bwen shippers don’t exactly get a good name. I was active a few years ago within the fandom and when I said that I was a Bwen shipper I was called a paedophile, told that I needed to be locked away in a mental asylum, accused of wanting to shag my cousins, and other responses in a similar vein. I am absolutely against paedophilia and personally find the fanart which sexualises the younger versions of the characters utterly sickening, but apparently the Ben 10 fandom is actually infamous to others for that fanart. I detest porn and R34 art in general as a girl since I find it really disrespectful and degrading , but sexualising minors is utterly unacceptable. I also do not have any kind of attraction to my cousins just because I ship Ben and Gwen. Some of the things which were said to me was a massive reason why I left the fandom for a few years.

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that being in a relationship with your cousin isn’t taboo everywhere in the world, and Ben 10 is watched widely in areas which allow cousin relationships. Also, incest tends to only really become an issue if inbreeding is repeated over generations leading to a smaller gene pool. Besides, there are cousin couples who adopt children in case they are scared that their own child would not turn out well if they were to conceive one. Anyways, although I understand why they didn’t make Bwen canon, I think that it would have been a very brave decision if they did, and ultimately one which makes the most sense. Far more than...ugh Gwevin. Wtf were they thinking with that? If anyone likes the ship then that’s fine but it wasn’t some epic romance to me, more an edgy guy/good girl combo which made zero sense given that Kevin tried to murder Gwen twice 5 years prior.

There is that cultural factor as well. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind about cousin relationships. Different countries have different cultural views towards all sorts of stuff. As you said so yourself, the southern Asian region are more accepting towards cousin relationships and marriages. People (as far as I can tell, it's usually Americans) that would condemn Bwen and be disrespectful and throw insults at Bwen shippers I don't think tend to factor this stuff in. Almost like they think that their cultural views apply to everywhere or they think that everyone should conform to their cultural views or something of the likes. That's my assumption at least.

As long as it doesn't cause actual harm towards others, I prefer respecting other people's cultures. Even if I disagree with them, it's not my right to demand that they should conform to something else. It's also not right to disrespect other people's cultures either.

As for your last point, once again, like how Little Moments handled their relationship. Whether their relationship is made to be romantic or not, at least maintain that dynamic that Ben and Gwen had in the Original Series. Have their relationship improve and grow more but also keep Ben and Gwen as their old selves and maintain their banter with each other.

Regardless, they need that dynamic bond between them. We need to see both of them developing as characters and paralleling each other's growth which was something that was missed out on in the sequels. And whether their relationship is romantic or not they can still have playful banter which is not just to get on each other's nerves rather than because they hate each other.

That does seem like one factor behind why Bwen was so popular, but ultimately, I say it comes down to how their relationship was handled. Ben and Gwen's relationship in the Original Series was well written. It was dynamic and engaging and had a lot of chemistry. Ben and Gwen start off on not so good terms with each other and over time, they've grown to really care for each other. Ben and Gwen have the best relationship in the franchise. Whenever those two are on screen doing something together, everything just works. It works so well that Ben and Gwen just don't work as characters without their relationship. They need each other in order to work as characters. Gwen is just as important to have on the franchise as Ben is. That's why many think that Ben and Gwen would be a good fit to be in a romantic relationship with each other.

Everything else I agree with. In fact, you suggest having a middle ground with how Ben and Gwen's relationship should be handled in the sequel shows and, well, I recall that the Little Moments series did that. In that series, Ben and Gwen do gradually become more and more mature but they still maintained their usual banter with each other. It became more of a game to them. It went from Ben and Gwen pushing each other's buttons to annoy each other to pushing each other's buttons just to have fun with each other and tease each other. Their relationship was handled so well in Little Moments that it felt very natural and fitting.

I have said before that personally I'm not a Bwen fan personally . The way I see it is that Ben and Gwen work off each other like brother and sister - in fact given that Ben is an only child, for me it seems that Gwen is like the sister than he never had . But they balanced each other out really well in the original. I think that the reason the ship was so popular was that Gwen was the only girl of his age whom Ben spent time with in the original - Lucy only had two short scenes in one episode while Kai...yeah fans didn't like her after how she treated Ben at the end of "Benwolf". And of course their chemistry with each other naturally led to a lot of shipping. Personally I think that if one sees romantic vibes in their relationship then the shipping makes sense, and if one doesn't then the relationship is purely platonic and non-romantic.

However I think that their bond with each other definitely fell to the wayside by the later shows, and while Kevin's good guy transition was one reason (I will get to that) I think that the primary reason was because Gwen and Ben weren't that well written as characters in AF, especially in comparison to the original series. Due to Alien Force trying really hard to push the "mature" theme of the show, they made Ben an essentially morally perfect protagonist initially, making him very mature and serious. I get what they were going for but it just made him feel so boring and generic rather than being a distinct character. Gwen was just as bad if not worse in terms of character. In the original she was a pretty distinct character - yes she could sometimes get annoying due to her personality but she was someone who you could root for and care about, just like Ben was. Alien Force changed all that by basically reducing her to being the stereotypical "mature token girl" of the series. She was so drastically different from who she was before that it didn't feel like she was the same person at all. She felt really passive and almost soft , and seemed to have lost most of her wit and feistiness to the point where this 15 year old girl was acting like a mother. Heck they even changed her magic from blue to pink to further make her the token girl.

However, my biggest problem with Gwen as a character was how she became so dependent on her relationship with Kevin in UAF. Again, this is taking an independent female character and making her too dependent on romantic motivations which doesn't feel right at all for me. The Gwevin ship itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense in context but that's a different can of worms. Regardless, introducing Kevin into the fold and forcing Gwevin (within what, 4 episodes?) disrupted the balance between Gwen and Ben (as mentioned earlier in the topic). It placed the focus on Gwen and Kevin's rushed romance rather than the bond between Ben and Gwen and how they balance each other out

To be fair to Ultimate Alien it did do some things right. They brought back Gwen's hot blooded nature from the original series, and although it felt that she complained more, it was still a huge step up from Alien Force Gwen. Ben was a bit of a jerk but I think that UA was the closest to giving us a balanced teenage Ben who can be both cocky and serious. I think that UA for all of its flaws did a slightly better job of writing their main characters - but they didn't nail them. The Ultimate Kevin arc was once again guilty of making Gwen overly reliant on her romantic motivations, and while she and Ben did work together in this arc, Ben was acting out of character anyway so...yeah the characterisation in that arc was a bit all over the place.

But anyway, because of the focus on Gwevin we barely have any interactions between Ben and Gwen. Gwen often sides and spends time with Kevin over Ben due to the romantic subplot and thus we never really get to see them have any banter or meaningful intereactions and as Primarily because Ben and Gwen in Alien Force are just either dull or inconsistent as characters and one could even say generic. I get that the narrative is that they've matured and don't fight as much anymore, which is fine. However they have hardly any chemistry and rivalry between them in UAF, if any at all because of the focus on Gwevin. I know that many people prefer them always getting along as opposed to their bickering, but personally I think that there should've been a midground in the sequel series: yes have them act more respectful and less immature towards each other but keep their distinct personalities and their banter with each other. I mean they're 15/16 year olds for crying out loud.

Why does Ben and Gwen's relationship and partnership work so well for the Ben 10 series, especially when Ben, Gwen, and Kevin don't work just as well together and neither Ben and Rook's partnership? It's about balance. How well they fit together and how well they work off of each other. I previously mentioned how Ben and Gwen have certain characteristics about each other that helps fulfill each other's needs. How they both have a gap that can be filled in through having the very relationship and partnership that they're in.

Ben and Gwen work so well with each other because they balance each other out. They keep each other in check. Gwen is there to keep Ben focused and to keep him out of trouble. Whenever Ben acts out of line, Gwen is there to put him back in line and keep him straight. Much like Max, Gwen is also like a mentor to Ben. As for Ben, as stated before, he's there to allow Gwen to have that much needed rest. Ben keeps Gwen from working too hard. To give Gwen the very breathing room that she need. To allow her to have some fun in her life. They both give each other what they're missing in each other's lives. As a result of this very balance and fulfillment, the series was able to build up a lot of great chemistry between them. To build up their relationship with each other very well. To make their partnership with each other work in favor of them and the series itself. That very balance that they've formed and built in their relationship is what allows the series to go very well with it's characters. It's what greatly helps hold the series up. If that balance is broken, then things can fall apart greatly here with the Ben 10 series, and that's what happened in Alien Force, Ultimate Alien, and Omniverse and this is mostly in regards to Ben.

Ben and Gwen alone work off of each other very well. However, when Kevin stepped in to join these two characters, that's when that balance that's been built starts to get broken. Kevin pretty much interferes with that balance that Ben and Gwen built and formed with each other. With Kevin being Gwen's boyfriend, Gwen ends up spending more time with Kevin and less time with Ben, thus preventing Gwen from being able to keep Ben in check as often as before. With Kevin being Ben's friend and ally and hangs out with Ben, thinking back to it, he more often reinforces Ben's out of line behavior and makes it worse and since that Gwen has to deal with keeping both Kevin and Ben in line, she ends up finding herself in a two on one situation and therefore her outspoken nature has less of an effect on Ben. It certainly doesn't help either that Gwen ends up more of a complainer in the sequel shows than an outspoken individual that keeps Ben in check, acting as the voice of reason for Ben. This is another reason why Kevin just doesn't work well as an ally for Ben and Gwen. Again, he just ends up interfering with that very balance that both Ben and Gwen built and formed with each other.

It pretty much got even worse in Omniverse as well when Gwen ends up leaving for college and Ben ends up being paired with Rook. With Gwen going off to college, Ben won't be there to keep Gwen in check and allow her to have that fun in her life that she's been missing. Even worse, Gwen will barely even be there at all to keep Ben in check and in line and Rook certainly doesn't do that well of a job of keeping Ben in check either. Rook may be more trained than Ben but he doesn't have that much authority over Ben and he's not as outspoken towards Ben as Gwen is and we see the result of this. Ben goes around and pretty much almost does what he wants. He more often, if not constantly, ends up more out of line and less focused than when he was with Gwen and therefore, he ends up in more trouble than he's supposed to be in. I won't discuss Ben and Gwen's grandfather, Max, though because he doesn't interfere with Ben and Gwen's relationship and partnership. Max doesn't interfere with that balance that Ben and Gwen have with each other because Max acts as more of the mentor for Ben and Gwen. Max doesn't step into their relationship and partnership but instead he works alongside it.

Even though the Ben 10 series is about Ben and that Ben is the main character, the same goes with Gwen as well. Gwen is also a main character and the series is just as much about her as with Ben as well. Gwen leaves just as much of an impact on the Ben 10 series as Ben. Again, Ben and Gwen have great chemistry with each other. They have a great relationship with each other. They have a great partnership with each other. They balance each other out and like I stated before, if that balance is broken, either through bringing in a third factor, separating the characters from each other, and/or replacing one of the main characters with a new character and reducing said main character to a more minor role, that's when the series starts to fall apart especially in regards to the main characters. If anything in Omniverse, Gwen and Rook's roles should have been switched. Gwen should be the main character and keep that partnership with Ben (regardless of her reason for leaving) and Rook should have been a more minor character that occasionally pops up from time to time to help Ben and Gwen out. If anything in Alien Force and Ultimate Alien, as I stated before, Kevin should have not joined Ben and Gwen as their ally so that he doesn't end up interfering with that very balance between Ben and Gwen.

This also further acts as another reason as to why I don't think a Gwen spinoff show likely wouldn't work very well. Either it would have to keep Ben and Gwen together and keep them as the main characters of the spinoff show and thus it would just end up being Ben 10 but in Gwen's point of view or it would have to make Ben a more minor character and thus interfere and/or break that very balance that Ben and Gwen have with each other. The former option would just end up making the Gwen spinoff show pretty much unnecessary while the latter option would likely end up being like Omniverse but with Gwen. That's just my take on a Gwen spinoff show though.

Either way, regardless of whether or not Ben and Gwen end up together, what the series definitely needs is for Ben and Gwen to have a great relationship and partnership with each other to keep each other balanced well with no other factors to interfere with that balance and thus break it. That very balance between Ben and Gwen needs to be maintained in order for the series to work well especially in regards to its main characters.

If anyone has any thoughts and opinions about this topic, feel free to leave a comment here if you want to.